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Trolls and Goggles.

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dragonslayerclan

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« on: (03:09:54/03-17-18) »
So here is what I am trying to fig out. I am playing Troll Adept (no bio or cyber ware).
He has natural Thermographic vision, Flare Comp (Adept power) and Vision Magnification (Adept power).
He is using Goggles with Smart Link, Image Link, Vision Enhancement 3.
1. Do I have to take off the goggle to use the Thermo Vision?
From what I understand image link and Smart link are just an overlays that the rest of my Vision stuff can work. So I think the only problem would come in to
play is the Vision Enhancement 3, I am thinking it is using some type of camera.
2. IF I was to get just Smart link without the cyber eyes and my be image link as well(why not I am losing some essence going to pick up some cyber or bio ware)
Would the rest of my adept powers vision still work just fine?
Please if you can give me books and page #'s to help me back this up some. But I think I am in my Game Master hands as for rules but I am not totally sure.

Overbyte

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« Reply #1 on: (03:49:16/03-17-18) »
Some great questions.. and I've been thinking about the same thing recently.
Here are some thoughts and answers.

>>1. Do I have to take off the goggle to use the Thermo Vision?

Probably yes. Unless you are using optical binoculars basically all the vision devices are digital, which means you are looking at a reproduction
of the image on a screen so you would NOT be able to use your own vision enhancements unless you took off the goggles.

>>2. IF I was to get just Smart link without the cyber eyes and my be image link as well(why not I am losing some essence going to pick up some cyber or bio ware)
Would the rest of my adept powers vision still work just fine?

The answer is yes. In fact even if you were to completely replace your eyes you could still use all your powers because you paid for the cybereyes with essence.

>>From what I understand image link and Smart link are just an overlays that the rest of my Vision stuff can work. So I think the only problem would come in to
play is the Vision Enhancement 3, I am thinking it is using some type of camera.

In a word. Yes. You are right in your thinking.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

firebug

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« Reply #2 on: (04:59:01/03-17-18) »
1)  Unless you cannot physically see through the goggles when they're off, you don't have to take them off.  Thermovision is not a "mode" for trolls, it's something they see at the same time as normal light (yes, that's difficult to comprehend or imagine).  There's no reason to assume you, by default, cannot see through vision devices like glasses, goggles, and contacts.  Most of the information you see is overlaid your normal vision (like how Google Glasses work today).  Maybe if you were using Vision Magnification it'd argued, but normal non-camera optical devices can not record footage, and so you're not seeing things played back to you in real time or anything like that.

2) Yes, as Overbyte says, your adept powers would be unaffected (aside from your loss of MAG and those effects of course).
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Reaver

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« Reply #3 on: (18:24:15/03-17-18) »
Just a note:

IF you replace your eyes, you lose the natural Thermographic that all Trolls have. (after all, you have just scooped out your natural eyeballs and replaced them with plastic ones!)

However, your adept powers would function as normal.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Overbyte

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« Reply #4 on: (02:27:55/03-18-18) »
Definitely seems like two ways of looking at the googles case.
1) Goggles are a screen that can't be seen through when they are off (like a TV now).
2) Goggles are a transparent screen that can be seen through when off.

It's not really clear which it should be. A transparent screen is certainly not far fetched.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

firebug

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« Reply #5 on: (02:39:22/03-18-18) »
The key concept of "augmented reality" is augmenting your vision by adding overlays to it, not replacing it entirely with a video feed.  We actually have some limited AR technology now (in real life), as I said, and it works by showing images on an otherwise transparent screen.  Saying it's "not far fetched" is an understatement; it's literally how the technology works.
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dragonslayerclan

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« Reply #6 on: (06:05:08/03-18-18) »
My GM is saying if a mage can not cast thought it then your natural vision will not work with it. here is why.

Page 433 core book.  "The small camera (in the Smart Link) has a capacity of 1 and can be equipped with vision enhancements." Do to the fact that the Smartlink can does have
a camera in it and can have one more Vision Enhancements add to it is not means it is not an overlay. To help back up his point page 433 core book "The camera lets
you shoot around corners without exposing yourself to return fire (at a –3 dice pool penalty)." I think this is a on/off option to use that camera for the shooting around the corners.

So this means if want to use your natural vision and save space in you gear. You have to turn off you Smartlink as a free action. By the way you only get
one of these in per turn . As per Page 162 "A character may take one Free Action during his own Action Phase or at some later point in the Initiative Pass."
I.E. I turn my goggles off so I can see thought the screen and use my Thermal vision and now I can shoot, not using my Smartlink. Wooot.

I hate it but unless some one can fine me something to back me up then here is the way i see it..
So your playing a Gun using Adept and you do not want to spend for  Enhanced Accuracy (skill for one weapon skill)  0.25 PP (power point). now you got one point of weapon Accuracy
But not the 2 you from smart link. Nimble Fingers for .25 PP. Now you swap Clips as free action. But not switch between gun modes, change the Choke on your shot gun,or
tones of other things as a free actoin or reduced actoin cost for having the smartlink. now you need to get 2 dice to your dice pool to make up for not having
a Smartlinked weapon and want to do it thought Adept powers. so you get Improved Ability (Skill) 0.5 pp so you send 1.0 pp. TIME FOR MATH Chummers
1.5 PP to be close to a smartlink gain the advantage of being able to swap mage as a free action. instead mentally thought to eject a clip. That sound to me as no action
cost to eject the Clip (page 433 core book "If you have a smartlink, you can mentally switch between gun modes, eject a clip, and
fire the gun without pulling the trigger.") and as Simpla action.

So the way I am starting to look at it pay the Chumbucket Essence hit of one and get Image Link and Smart Link and a few more cyber/bio ware.
Yes you could just get all the Adept powers as QI foci and spend that money and Karma and get the power that way.
Please thoughts ideas help me out here. I am feeling like got ahold of my butt O with sand paper or am i am a Whinny street walker.

Side note sorry for all the mis-spelling and bad grammar. 

firebug

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« Reply #7 on: (06:58:28/03-18-18) »
A mage can cast through goggles...

First of all, your GM is an idiot.  On page 433 it is talking about the camera in your gun, which is why it's listed under gun accessories.  If he is trying to apply that to goggles, he's either an idiot or really reaching to avoid being wrong.  The gun gains a camera which is what is used to fire around corners; you point the gun and use its camera momentarily.  In this situation, no, you could not see heat unless you upgraded the gun's camera with thermographic vision.

A smartlink system has two components.  The firearm accessory (smartgun system), which can be external or internal, and the smartlink in your vision device, which is an overlay and does not impede your natural vision in any way.  Then you're good.  You get less of a Wireless Bonus than you would if you had the smartlink vision enhancement instead implanted (either into your natural eye or in a cybereye), but it's still a very useful bit of gear.

It is not so complex and difficult to use a smartgun as an adept.  Seriously.  Forgive my rudeness, your GM just seems like someone who's being immature in a way that really irritates me.
« Last Edit: (07:08:20/03-18-18) by firebug »
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Marcus

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« Reply #8 on: (07:35:51/03-18-18) »
What your GM means is you can't target with out LOS, so if an image is recorded and played else where even it's "live" you don't actually have direct LOS.
But so long as you have a direct path, you can use things called wizard goggles which basically are fiber optics lines that give direct LOS despite being fairly distant or at-least well removed from a target.  But you have to get pretty old school to run into one those setups. The old Rigger/Mage building defense combo was rough back in the day.

Cyber eyes give you "natural" vision for all purposes, including with things like Wizard Goggles, however an image broad cast to cybereye's imagelink would not count as direct LOS. There are different type vision augments (Microwave microscopic etc), and they will say if they count for magic or not.

*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

firebug

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« Reply #9 on: (10:41:13/03-18-18) »
Cyber eyes give you "natural" vision for all purposes, including with things like Wizard Goggles, however an image broad cast to cybereye's imagelink would not count as direct LOS.

To go into a bit more detail about what Marcus means, he's referring to watching a video recorded by someone else (potentially in real time) using augmented reality (which your image link allows you to see).
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dragonslayerclan

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« Reply #10 on: (18:04:07/03-18-18) »
Ace Runner My GM will not let me use my natural Therm Visoin with any Smartlink eyeware unless I pay ESS to have the smartlink.

FireBug. Going to bring up the camera thing your pointed out and see

Overbyte

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« Reply #11 on: (18:54:10/03-18-18) »
The key concept of "augmented reality" is augmenting your vision by adding overlays to it, not replacing it entirely with a video feed.  We actually have some limited AR technology now (in real life), as I said, and it works by showing images on an otherwise transparent screen.  Saying it's "not far fetched" is an understatement; it's literally how the technology works.

Except... how would you have AR with something like Zoom?
This is why you have optical binoculars.. specifically so that you could use magical/adept powers while enhancing your vision.
Otherwise you must "replace" your vision with the new image. Hence a "screen".
Now extend this to something like low-light. Every pixel in your vision has to be "covered" by AR essentially blocking any normal vision.

I'm not saying it MUST be this way, but it does seem logical.
Nothing is foolproof. Fools are so ingenious.

dragonslayerclan

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« Reply #12 on: (21:11:34/03-18-18) »
I am agreeing with you guys, but I need facts from the book somewhere to help me back this up. IE page # and stuff to help my GM see what we are talking about. not just
what make sense. He is claiming this is part of the balance for having a Smartlink is that it stop you from using your natural vision. He see it as a screen that block you
natural vision from beyond the screen in you goggle, glasses, contacts lenses.

Right now I have a way to hit him with this.
This is what I am thinking. IF we have to pay essence to use our vision with then you as can not  use these "page 433 core book "If you have a smartlink, you
can mentally switch between gun modes, eject a clip, and fire the gun without pulling the trigger." Because it would have to plugged into you brain somehow to menally
use the options. Also might have a bit of a work around use monocle sence they only crover 1 eye. hehehe.

I have plowed though all the book I have looking for info on Smartlinks, here is what I have found.

433 Core FIREARM ACCESSORIES
Smartgun system: This connects a firearm or a
projectile weapon directly to the user’s smartlink. Incorporating
a small camera and laser range finder, the
smartlink keeps track of ammunition, heat buildup, and
material stress. If you have a smartlink, you can mentally
switch between gun modes, eject a clip, and fire
the gun without pulling the trigger. The camera lets
you shoot around corners without exposing yourself
to return fire (at a –3 dice pool penalty). The system
makes use of advanced calculation software, allowing
for precisely calculated trajectories and high precision
over any distance.
If you’re using a smartlink, the smartgun system increases
the gun’s Accuracy by 2. The smartgun features
are accessed either by universal access port cable to an
imaging device (like glasses, goggles, or a datajack for
someone with cybereyes) or by a wireless connection
working in concert with direct neural interface.
Retrofitting a firearm with an internal smartgun system
doubles the weapon’s price and adds 2 to its Availability.
An external smartgun system can be attached to
the top mount or underbarrel mount with an Armorer +
Logic (4, 1 hour) Extended Test. The small camera has a
capacity of 1 and can be equipped with vision enhancements.
Wireless: A wireless smartlink provides a dice pool
bonus to all attacks with the weapon: +1 if you’re using
gear with a smartlink or +2 if you’re using an augmentation
for which you paid Essence. Ejecting a clip and
changing fire modes are Free Actions.

Page 444 core VISION ENHANCEMENTS
Smartlink: This accessory works with a smartgun system
to give you the full benefit of the system. The smartgun
will tell you the range to various targets, as well as
ammunition level (and type), heat buildup, mechanical
stress and so on. Without a smartlink, a smartgun system
just sends out data that isn’t received by anyone and has
no effect. A smartlink installed in a natural eye or in a pair
of cybereyes is more effective than a smartlink installed in
an external device; see Smartgun System, p. 433.

Page 281 core Magic section
STEP 2: CHOOSE THE TARGET
The next thing you must do is choose target(s). You need
to be able to establish a link with your target—depending
on the spell, you’ll need to be able to see or touch the target
in order to establish the mystical link.
If you need to see the target, line of sight can be established
with your natural vision, including using reflective
surfaces and looking through transparent objects.
Cyber- or bioware visual enhancements that have been
paid for with Essence count as natural. Any technological
visual aid that digitizes or augments the visual input
for you (a camera, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds,
etc.) doesn’t work—you’re looking at a generated image,
not the light from the real target. Spellcasting by visual
targeting is subject to normal visibility modifiers. You can
use visual targeting to target astral targets when you’re
in astral space (you’re not technically seeing them, but
the analogy works).
Some spells can only be cast on targets that you’re
touching. You don’t need to see these targets, but you
might need to make an unarmed attack to make contact
with an unwilling target. Touching a target through
clothing, armor, or a layer of paint is acceptable.
A magician in the physical world can only cast spells
on targets that are in the physical world. Similarly, a
magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets
that are present in astral space (though auras of things
in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot
be targeted). If you’re using astral perception (or you are
otherwise dual-natured), you can cast spells on targets
in either the physical world or astral plane. Only mana-
based spells work in astral space, even if you’re in the
physical world astrally perceiving the target.
Area Spells: Area spells can be cast on a specific target
or a point in space that you can see. Unless noted in
a spell, the area of the spell is a sphere centered on the
target with a radius in meters equal to the Force of the
spell. All targets in the area of effect that you can see,
friend and foe alike, are valid targets for the spell. If a potential
target is outside your vision (behind a screen, for
example), they’re not affected.


firebug

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« Reply #13 on: (15:02:15/03-19-18) »
It's kind of BS that your GM can use "what makes sense" to him but not to you.  Nowhere in the books does it say what you're looking at is a screen that blocks vision.  He's just assuming that.  The parts you shared is the evidence, but if he's not going along with how the game works, then I don't know what to say.

It does not have to be plugged into your brain to use those options.  It says "if you have a smartlink".  That's what that part of the sentence means.

The "balance" for smartlink is that you paid for it, that it's vulnerable to hacking.  Not that it blocks your vision...

Except... how would you have AR with something like Zoom?
This is why you have optical binoculars.. specifically so that you could use magical/adept powers while enhancing your vision.
Otherwise you must "replace" your vision with the new image. Hence a "screen".
Now extend this to something like low-light. Every pixel in your vision has to be "covered" by AR essentially blocking any normal vision.

Optical binoculars exist, yes, which is why the zoom feature makes sense for an argument, but not the other enhancements beside Vision Magnification.  It probably doesn't completely replace your vision, but shows you a picture-in-picture type box with the zoomed image.  Where does it say that becomes the only thing you can see?

Seeing as you can even have these vision enhancements added directly to your eyeballs via cybernetic enhancement, I think that makes it pretty damn clear that they don't stop you from seeing.  I have nothing more to add for both of you.  Overbyte, if you want to say people are blinded when they use Vision Magnification in your games go ahead.  Dragonslayerclan (who I almost typed as "dragonslayer-chan"), I'm sorry your GM seems to have an odd issue with this...  You may just have to accept that he's wrong and is going to force the game to work his way, or else find another GM.  If it's happening with something as basic as a smartgun, be prepared for it to happen many times over the course of the game.  I hope it isn't run into the ground because of his unbending attitude.
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Spooky

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« Reply #14 on: (17:23:35/03-19-18) »
So for my 2 nuyen on this: Natural lowlight or thermographic are always on, ie you always see better than other in lowlight conditions or you always see the heat profile of whatever you look at. Using cyber eyes, you instead have vision modes of normal, lowlight, and/or thermographic. You can only use one mode at a time (see the gear section on cybereyes for the printed specifics). Smartlink and Imagelink work like a HUD (Heads Up Display) system, creating an overlay of information on the mode of vision you are using. So if you want to use liwlight and thermographic at the same time, you need to have one in your eyes, and one on a screen (glasses, contacts, goggles, helmet's faceshield) in front of your eyes. This is how my character can use lowlight/thermographic, smartlink, and ultrasound simultaneously. Lowlight/thermographic and smartlink in the cybereyes, and ultrasound via imagelink on his helmet's faceshield. So he uses (for example) thermographic vision mode with smartlink overlay, while looking through the faceshield's imagelinked display of ultrasound imaging. Not perfect, but good enough to maneuver and fight in complete darkness, relatively unhindered.
Hope this helps.

PS since I am AFB right now, I can't give page numbers, but most of this comes from reading the gear section's descriptions of sensors and cybereyes.
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