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Could this Adept build work and be viable?

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dmel25

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« on: (01:23:25/03-06-18) »
Okay so this is my first post here, and I would like to get people's opinions on a potential build for a character I have.  Basically, my friend who is GMing is going to let our group "respec" our characters within reason, so I figured I would get the opinion of people who are more experienced than me at making characters.  This is of course after we have been playing a bit and have accrued some Karma already so we get to use that Karma when we respec our characters instead of starting from scratch with 800 Karma in the Point Buy System.

My character is a vampire, and my GM let me do this with some caveats such as not being able to have the Regeneration power, and a few other things to make the vampire more balanced.  I want him to be more of an infiltration type, but also be able to do something in a fight so I went with Unarmed combat and Pistols.  I really would just like to know what it is I could do or change to make this build more viable or just better.  Any advice would be helpful. 
Here he is:

Attributes:
BOD - 4
AGI - 6
REA - 6 ( 8 ) = +2 from Improved Reflexes
STR - 7 (9) =  +2 from Vampire bonus
CHA - 3
INT - 4 (6) = +2 from Vampire bonus
LOG - 2
WIL - 4
EDG - 3
MAG - 6

Positive Qualities:
Adept
Blandness
Catlike
Infected: Vampire(Human)
The Beast's Way
Mentor Spirit (Wolf)

Negative Qualities:
Uneducated
Family Curse
Vendetta
Dependent(Nuisance)

Skills:

Stealth Group = 2
Athletics = 1

Con 3 =  Dice: 6( 8 ) Seduction

Disguise  2 = Dice: 8

Gymnastics 2 = Dice: 8(10) Dodging

Locksmith 2 = Dice: 8

Negotation 3 = Dice: 6

Palming 2 = Dice: 8

Perception 4 = Dice: 10(12) Visual

Pilot Ground Craft 1 = Dice: 9

Pistols 4 = Dice: 12 (Improved Ability 2)

Running 1 = Dice: 10

Sneaking 3 = Dice: 11(13) Urban (Plus 2 from Catlike)

Swimming 1 = Dice: 10

Tracking 1 = Dice: 9 (Plus 2 from Wolf mentor spirit)

Unarmed Combat 6 = Dice: 12(14) Martial Art

Limits

Physical = 10
Mental = 5
Social = 6
Astral = 6


Martial Arts

Wildcat
-Counterstrike
-Dim Mak
-Finishing Move


Adept Powers

Because he has the Beast's Way he gets 3 discounts to powers, listed in the rulebook, I chose Combat Sense, Keratin Control, and Killing Hands. He has initiated and grabbed one extra powerpoint for a total of 7.

Attribute Boost(AGI)  2                =  0 PP (Free from Wolf Mentor Spirit)
Combat Sense 2                         =  .75 PP (First level discounted to .25)
Enhanced Accuracy(Pistols) 1   =  .25 PP
Hang Time  1                              =  .25 PP
Improved Ability(Pistols) 2         =  1 PP
Improved Reflexes 2                 =  2.5 PP
Keratin Control 1                       =  .25 PP (Discounted to .25)
Killing Hands  1                         =  .25 PP (Discounted to .25)
Light Body 1                              =  .25 PP
Penetrating Strike 4                  =  1 PP   
Rapid Draw 1                            =  .5 PP

Initiation

Grade 1 - Powerpoint
-Enhancement Claws from Beast's Way. (Adds +1DV to unarmed attacks)


Street Gear

I am thinking about giving him a Maglock Passkey, Lockpick set, Explosive rounds, Gel rounds, APDS rounds, and Stick-n-Shock rounds. 

Total Armor = 11
Lined Coat: Armor 9
Helmet: Armor 2

Weapons

Unarmed Attack - Damage: 10P   AP: -4  Accuracy: 10

Browning Ultra-Power Heavy Pistol - Damage: 8P   AP: -1  Accuracy: 7

Infected Bite - Damage: 10P   AP: -1    Accuracy 10

Shock Gloves - Damage: 8S(e)   AP: -5   Accuracy: 10

firebug

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« Reply #1 on: (01:58:11/03-06-18) »
If you're trying to focus on infiltration over combat, it really doesn't show at all.  This is an unarmed combat specialist, first and foremost so I'll treat it like one.  In that regard, I'd consider replacing Rapid Draw with Critical Strike (Unarmed) since you're maximizing unarmed damage.

Also, the attributes from becoming Infected are not augmentation, they're just increases to your attributes as if you'd paid Karma.

Armor is important if you're gonna be in melee, so I'd try and get as much as possible.  My suggestion is that you get an Argentum Coat (12 Armor, still has the long coat style) with Gel Packs mod (+2 Armor, but lowers your Physical Limit by 2 for determining how much damage it takes to knock you over, won't affect you at all really).  Then get things like Securetech PPP armor addons for Legs and Arms for +2 armor total.  With your helmet, that's 16 armor instead of 11.  Makes a difference.

Also, I'd consider changing out the Improved Reflexes.  I know!  It sounds crazy, but hear me out.  Vampire already gives you +1d6 initiative, and that doesn't stack with your adept power (nothing does).  Meaning you're getting a much lower bonus (just 1d6+2) from a massive 2.5 PP investment.  You could take those points and put them into something like Combat Sense (for 4 more dodge dice if you spend all 2.5) or maybe Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat).

Enhanced Accuracy (Pistols) is overkill.  There's so many ways to boost a pistol's accuracy, and your dice pool with pistols isn't even that high.

Why do you have shock gloves, by the way?  They seem redundant with your unarmed ability.
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dmel25

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« Reply #2 on: (11:53:54/03-06-18) »
If you're trying to focus on infiltration over combat, it really doesn't show at all.  This is an unarmed combat specialist, first and foremost so I'll treat it like one.  In that regard, I'd consider replacing Rapid Draw with Critical Strike (Unarmed) since you're maximizing unarmed damage.

Also, the attributes from becoming Infected are not augmentation, they're just increases to your attributes as if you'd paid Karma.

Armor is important if you're gonna be in melee, so I'd try and get as much as possible.  My suggestion is that you get an Argentum Coat (12 Armor, still has the long coat style) with Gel Packs mod (+2 Armor, but lowers your Physical Limit by 2 for determining how much damage it takes to knock you over, won't affect you at all really).  Then get things like Securetech PPP armor addons for Legs and Arms for +2 armor total.  With your helmet, that's 16 armor instead of 11.  Makes a difference.

Also, I'd consider changing out the Improved Reflexes.  I know!  It sounds crazy, but hear me out.  Vampire already gives you +1d6 initiative, and that doesn't stack with your adept power (nothing does).  Meaning you're getting a much lower bonus (just 1d6+2) from a massive 2.5 PP investment.  You could take those points and put them into something like Combat Sense (for 4 more dodge dice if you spend all 2.5) or maybe Improved Ability (Unarmed Combat).

Enhanced Accuracy (Pistols) is overkill.  There's so many ways to boost a pistol's accuracy, and your dice pool with pistols isn't even that high.

Why do you have shock gloves, by the way?  They seem redundant with your unarmed ability.

Yeah I am not really sure how to make him more infiltration oriented.  The way he currently is kind of works, but in combat he is pretty bad, and since none of the other teams want to accompany my character when he infiltrates he is usually left alone, so if dreg hits the fan he is in a bad situation combat-wise. This is why I wanted to add more combat stuff to him with this build.

As for the Attributes, I posted it the way Chummer showed it, so I assumed it was considered part of the augmentation.  Thanks for clearing that up.  Also, as for the vampire getting an extra 1D6 for initiative, in chummer it doesn't give the character an extra 1D6 die for initiative, so I did not know that either.  I will most likely have to reconsider using Improved Reflexes then.

I will definitely switch up that armor because that will severely help.  And the Shock Gloves he got just recently from a run, so I figured I would add them here.

Is there any other suggestions you have that could help make him more into an infiltration type?

firebug

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« Reply #3 on: (12:11:16/03-06-18) »
The kind of infiltrating you're going for (just physically sneaking into a building) isn't very useful.  As you've already noticed, you can't take your team in with you.  Generally, infiltration is done differently in Shadowrun, and I'll tell you the most common strategies.

Before that though, you need to think of what your goal is by infiltrating.  This character has Sneaking...  So he can walk past a few people, but then what?  What do you do once you're inside?  What about locked doors?  What happens when you find someone who isn't in a position you can just sneak past?  Usually the goal of infiltration is reconnaissance; it's about getting information before you and your team head in for real.  So with that in mind, here's the most common approaches:

1) Drone recon.  Drones can be much, much smaller than a person, turn invisible, climb walls, fly, and have a collection of sensor and recording equipment standard.  They're harder to spot on the astral as well.  The downsides are that they're physically vulnerable and can be detected (and eliminated) on the matrix if you're not careful.  However, losing a drone is a lot better than a teammate getting caught with their fist in the cookie jar.

2) Astral recon.  Primarily it's done with Astral Projection, but spirits, watchers, and a few spells can allow you to see and hear what you otherwise couldn't.  The information you get is less reliable (and less clinically-accurate) when you have to see it reflected on the astral or spoken back to you by a strange otherworldy being, but it's a lot harder to block and so can allow access to information you may otherwise need a lot of prep for.

3) Social recon.  This is what the "infiltrator" role tends to be when it's the focus of a character.  They don't need to worry about being seen--  They look like they belong there.  They talk the talk and walk the walk; locked doors are opened for them by other people.  They're usually mostly a Face archetype with a few extra skills.  They can be mundane with augmentations or Awakened, there's lots of ways to approach it.  What's important is good social skills and ways to change how they look.  The risk with this one is probably the highest--  The social infiltrator gets in there personally, not via projection or drone, and so if things go tits up they can't just put down their RCC and walk away or snap back to reality and get out of bed.  But their strength is that rather than facing the site's matrix or magic defenses, they use the people who work there and exploit that, which means otherwise very secure facilities can sometimes be infiltrated this way.  Once in, they go to wherever they can for whatever information they need, and then will sometimes switch strategies--  A mundane social infiltrator pulls out a drone and has it do a reading/recording of where they are, or maybe an Awakened social infiltrator finds a safe place and astrally projects (now that they've walked right past the facility's mana barriers).

If you're gonna stay an adept, you'll probably need to aim towards #3.  Street Grimoire mentions using Mist Form to help with infiltrating an area, but also gives several warnings about how that can go wrong and how defenses against it exist.  Still, it's probably gonna be a big help if you plan on physically being where you shouldn't be, alone.
« Last Edit: (12:13:00/03-06-18) by firebug »
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
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« Reply #4 on: (12:27:44/03-06-18) »
Is there any other suggestions you have that could help make him more into an infiltration type?

I'd consider infiltration being a term that encompasses two skill sets.  On one hand you could be the guy who can talk his way through anything, and on the other you could be the guy who just never gets detected in the first place.

A handful of skills will be critical to either approach:  Sneaking, Gymnastics, Locksmith

Skills critical for talky type infiltration: Con, Etiquette, Disguise
Skills critical for ninja type infiltration: Perception, Escape Artist, Free Fall

Infiltration is a niche that also has some inherent reliance on tech.  You'll want to make sure you have a quality Jammer to make cameras not see you.  Perhaps it may be worthwhile to invest in the Electronics Warfare skill to help in this area as well.  There are lots of kinds of maglocks, so you'll want to have an answer for all the different kinds (Keycard, Key Sequence, Biosample such as fingerprint/retina scan, Voice Recognition, etc).  You'll want Tool Kits for Locksmith and Disguise.  Probably will want Climbing Gear and Grapple Gun & Rope.  (don't forget rappelling gloves if you use microwire!)  Infiltrators are one of the types who could plausibly broadcast multiple quality SINs over the course of a Shadowrun.  You'll want an assortment of RFID tags: presumably you're infiltrating for a reason... going in to plant bugs for SIGINT is pretty much the reason to infiltrate in the first place much of the time.

Your knowledge skills can be quite important for an infiltrator.  Knowing business practices and company organizational procedures is invaluable for a talk-your-way-in type.  Knowing the technical capabilities and limitations of security sensors is invaluable for a ninja type.  Etc.

Edit:  firebug gave excellent advice, but I'd slightly differ from her opinion about the viability of using a metahuman in the "drone recon" niche.  Sure you can still do it, but absolutely keep the dangers in mind that she says justifies the use of drones rather than a metahuman :)  You too can "turn invisible" the same way drones do via ruthenium polymers on your sneak suit, and etc.  Just remember that if you're sneaking in by yourself, there needs to be a very finite goal and a good plan.
« Last Edit: (12:30:48/03-06-18) by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »

dmel25

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« Reply #5 on: (12:43:19/03-06-18) »
I appreciate the help guys.  They really help, I say my character was/is the infiltrator type, but that kind of happened to be his role because no one else in the group had any kind of skill in that field.  I might change it up and just make him an unarmed specialist who can sneak some and use pistols, because my group tends to get into trouble and fights ensue.

I will definitely look into the different maglock stuff, lockpicking gear, climbing gear and the rest.  I think our "Face" might respec his character to be more social infiltrator because he likes to be the leader type who talks his way through stuff. 

Would you guys happen to know any fun gunslinger/unarmed builds?  For my respec I kind of wanted to go with a Red Hood type character, uses a pistol and can use his fists too while also being sneaky.  This may not even be possible, or viable I should say, so I would like to know now before our GM lets us respec.

firebug

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« Reply #6 on: (12:53:08/03-06-18) »
Well, beating the drek out of people with your bare hands and shooting pistols isn't really sneaky for the most part, but if you want like an assassin style character where your stealth skills are used to make sure you get an ambush on people, you definitely can do that.  Realistically that's not to different from the build you have with the changes I suggested, since you're still primarily a combat character.  Doing 11P unarmed is enough to eliminate most Professional Rating 3 or lower opponents in a single hit, with a high dice pool.  It might even be a little overkill honestly.

Keep in mind though, Red Hood does that because he doesn't work with a team of people most of the time (and is an extremely skilled, experienced fighter).  When you're facing opposition you need a whole team to fight, being first to touch down isn't always great if you don't have the defenses to survive the first combat round when you're the only target.  Since you can't be fast enough to make 6 attacks in a turn and kill a room full of people before they react, you either need to be able to defend against attacks or be able to do something to extend the chaos and disorientation of your targets (like magic, smoke bombs, etc).

That said, you could do a more defensive build, either as an adept or via augmentation (you don't regenerate, so you can get augments, just don't ever learn to regenerate I guess).  I could post a build, but normally I go for Sum to 10 or Priority, not Karma Build.
« Last Edit: (13:00:15/03-06-18) by firebug »
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dmel25

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« Reply #7 on: (13:10:12/03-06-18) »
Well, beating the drek out of people with your bare hands and shooting pistols isn't really sneaky for the most part, but if you want like an assassin style character where your stealth skills are used to make sure you get an ambush on people, you definitely can do that.  Realistically that's not to different from the build you have with the changes I suggested, since you're still primarily a combat character.  Doing 11P unarmed is enough to eliminate most Professional Rating 3 or lower opponents in a single hit, with a high dice pool.  It might even be a little overkill honestly.

Keep in mind though, Red Hood does that because he doesn't work with a team of people most of the time (and is an extremely skilled, experienced fighter).  When you're facing opposition you need a whole team to fight, being first to touch down isn't always great if you don't have the defenses to survive the first combat round when you're the only target.  Since you can't be fast enough to make 6 attacks in a turn and kill a room full of people before they react, you either need to be able to defend against attacks or be able to do something to extend the chaos and disorientation of your targets (like magic, smoke bombs, etc).

That said, you could do a more defensive build, either as an adept or via augmentation (you don't regenerate, so you can get augments, just don't ever learn to regenerate I guess).  I could post a build, but normally I go for Sum to 10 or Priority, not Karma Build.

Yeah I figured a build like an assassin type would be close to what I have and probably be more what I am aiming for.  I know I I wouldn't be able to go in and wreck a whole group of enemies by myself, I was just hoping to be able to get the drop on them and help out more than my character currently does.

I would really like to see your build, it will definitely help me.  I appreciate it.

firebug

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« Reply #8 on: (13:58:05/03-06-18) »
Alright, here's a very quick build without all of the more personal choices made (like contacts, knowledge skills, and a few qualities).



Done with Sum to 10: EAEBB

Without taking into account money or nuyen you earned, since this build doesn't need to be that exact.  It's a "mundane" augmented vampire.  Chummer seems to think the Vampire initiative bonus stacks with Wired Reflexes.  I don't think it's supposed to, but that's up to your GM.  This guy has skills to get into a good position for an ambush, and will basically never go down in combat.  His 24 armor means basically all damage is Stun, so whatever bits get through won't kill him.  Pain Editor stops him from falling unconscious; when your Stun track is full, it goes to Physical at a 2-1 ratio (so, it takes 2 Stun to do 1 Physical box) and you don't accrue wound penalties.  Meaning, basically you have really high damage mitigation and can take three times the damage a normal person can before going down, and the damage you take never slows you.

This build isn't as deadly with their fists as the adept, but is still a threat, enough to feel like they aren't helpless without a gun by any means.  With the smartgun, they have 16 dice for firing in Semi-Automatic mode, so they're a good shot.  This is mostly just the skeleton of a build, but it should give you an idea of how you could do it.

== Personal Data ==
Name: Unnamed Character         Alias:
Human                           
Movement: 18/30 (2m/hit)                 
Swim: 12 (1m/hit)                     
                                Composure: 6
Street Cred: 0                  Judge Intentions: 10
Notoriety: 1                    Lift/Carry: 11 (90 kg/60 kg)
Public Awareness: 0             Memory: 6
Karma: 0                        Nuyen: 10,684
Age:                            Skin:
Eyes:                           Hair:
Primary Arm: Right             

== Priorities ==
Metatype: E,0
Attributes: A,4
Special: E,0
Skills: B,3
Resources: B,3

== Attributes ==
BOD: 5                          CHA: 3
AGI: 6                          INT: 5 (7)
REA: 3 (5) LOG: 3
STR: 4 (6) WIL: 3
EDG: 3                         

== Derived Attributes
Essence: 0.09                   Initiative:          12 +4d6
Physical Damage Track: 11       Rigger Initiative:   12 +4d6
Stun Damage Track:              10Astral Initiative:   
Physical: 8                     Matrix AR:           12 +4d6
Mental: 6                       Matrix Cold:         12 +3d6
Social: 4                       Matrix Hot:          12 +4d6
   Mortimer of London: Argentum Coat: +1, Must be visible
   Securetech PPP: Arms Kit: -1, Must be visible
   Securetech PPP: Legs Kit: -1, Must be visible
Astral: 6

 == Active Skills ==
Con (Fast Talk)                 Base: 3  + Karma: 0  = 3   Pool: 6 (8)
Etiquette                       Base: 3  + Karma: 0  = 3   Pool: 6
Gymnastics                      Base: 2  + Karma: 0  = 2   Pool: 8
Navigation                      Base: 3  + Karma: 0  = 3   Pool: 10
Palming                         Base: 6  + Karma: 0  = 6   Pool: 12
Perception                      Base: 4  + Karma: 0  = 4   Pool: 11
Pistols (Semi-Automatics)       Base: 6  + Karma: 0  = 6   Pool: 12 (14)
Running                         Base: 2  + Karma: 0  = 2   Pool: 8
Sneaking                        Base: 6  + Karma: 0  = 6   Pool: 12
Survival                        Base: 3  + Karma: 0  = 3   Pool: 6
Swimming                        Base: 2  + Karma: 0  = 2   Pool: 8
Tracking                        Base: 3  + Karma: 0  = 3   Pool: 10
Unarmed Combat                  Base: 6  + Karma: 0  = 6   Pool: 12

 == Knowledge Skills ==

 == Qualities ==
Biocompatability (Cyberware)
Dependent (Nuisance)
Family Curse
Infected: Vampire (Human) (INT)
Restricted Gear
Uneducated
Vendetta

 == Critter Powers ==
Allergy (Wood, Severe)
Allergy (Sunlight, Severe)
Dietary Requirement (Metahuman Blood)
Dual Natured
Essence Drain
Essence Loss
Immunity (Age)
Immunity (Toxins)
Induced Dormancy (Lack of Air (Essence) Minutes)
Infection

 == Cyberware/Bioware ==
Bone Lacing (Aluminum)
Datajack
Internal Router
OrthoskinRating 4
Pain Editor
Smartlink
Wired ReflexesRating 2

 == Armor ==
Helmet                             +2
Mortimer of London: Argentum Coat  14/+4
   + Concealability
   + Custom Fit (Stack)
   + Gel Packs
Securetech PPP: Arms Kit           +1
Securetech PPP: Legs Kit           +1

 == Weapons ==
Infected Bite
   Pool: 12     Accuracy: 8     DV: 7P       AP: -1    RC: 3
Savalette Guardian
   + Smartgun System, Internal
   Pool: 12 (14)Accuracy: 7     DV: 8P       AP: -1    RC: 4
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 12     Accuracy: 8     DV: 8P       AP: -     RC: 3

 == Commlink ==
Hermes Ikon (ATT: 0, SLZ: 0, DP: 5, FWL: 5)
   + Commlink Functionality [Camera, Micro 1, Chip Player, Credstick Reader, Earbuds 3, GPS Guidance System, Micro Trid-Projector, Music Player, RFID Tag Scanner, Shock- and Water-Resistant Case, Touchscreen Display]

== Gear: Equipped ==
Ammo: APDS (Heavy Pistols) 48
Ammo: Gel Rounds (Heavy Pistols) 36
Fake SIN Rating 4
Spare Clip (Savalette Guardian) 6
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

dmel25

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« Reply #9 on: (14:37:40/03-06-18) »
Oh wow, that is a really good build.  I will definitely take that and use it to change around some stuff on mine.  I don't think my GM would let me become a mundane when I am already an adept, and I also think he would not let me get that much cyberware since vampires lose essence over time.  But I will ask, but I will definitely use some of that build in my own. 

Thank you very much.

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« Reply #10 on: (16:05:35/03-06-18) »
Firebug you took immunity toxin over regen? and a Pain Editor? Soak 32 is cute, but taking advantage of Regen is easier. I also think you have gotten more effect out of reaction enhancers. Also it's not an adept why swap concepts on a newbie?
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« Reply #11 on: (16:07:45/03-06-18) »
Firebug you took immunity toxin over regen? and a Pain Editor? Soak 32 is cute, but taking advantage of Regen is easier. I also think you have gotten more effect out of reaction enhancers. Also it's not an adept why swap concepts on a newbie?

Regeneration and cyberware don't play together well. Besides regen is problematic.

« Reply #12 on: (16:36:11/03-06-18) »
Does SR5 have some version of the Spell Shroud adept power from earlier editions?  An adept power that works on detection spells/wards like a jammer works on cameras would be amazing.

I'm a believer in that whatever it is you do, you ought to pick at least some abilities that can't be replicated by other routes.  For example if you're a cybernetically enhanced infiltrator, then you ought to pick cyberware that gives you some kind of ability or abilities that cannot be replicated by magic.  If you're an adept, then you ought to pick some powers that can't be replicated by the razorbois and girls.  If Spell Shroud still exists (I couldn't find it in SR5 or SG) that'd be a great nomination for an adept infiltrator.

firebug

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« Reply #13 on: (17:37:31/03-06-18) »
Firebug you took immunity toxin over regen? and a Pain Editor? Soak 32 is cute, but taking advantage of Regen is easier. I also think you have gotten more effect out of reaction enhancers. Also it's not an adept why swap concepts on a newbie?

What power I picked didn't matter, and OP said his GM wouldn't let him pick Regen.  I mentioned a mundane build and said I could post it...  Did you read the thread?

I can make a defensive adept build and post that later if he wants.
I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

dmel25

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« Reply #14 on: (18:37:35/03-06-18) »
Firebug you took immunity toxin over regen? and a Pain Editor? Soak 32 is cute, but taking advantage of Regen is easier. I also think you have gotten more effect out of reaction enhancers. Also it's not an adept why swap concepts on a newbie?

What power I picked didn't matter, and OP said his GM wouldn't let him pick Regen.  I mentioned a mundane build and said I could post it...  Did you read the thread?

I can make a defensive adept build and post that later if he wants.

That would be awesome.  I haven't made any final decisions so any build will give me something to think about.