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Way of the Burnout

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JoeNapalm

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« on: (12:58:02/02-14-18) »
Has there been a definitive answer as to whether this counts vs your total Positive Quality cap at CharGen?

I've seen it both ways on the forums, here...

-Jn-
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PiXeL01

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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #2 on: (11:26:42/02-15-18) »

Drek. HeroLab treats it as a Positive Quality, which is sort of a non-starter for the build I'm working on. I don't wanna give up 15pts of those.

Isn't Burnout's Way free, after Chargen? If I'm reading it right (not saying that I am), couldn't I burn a couple of points of Magic during Chargen and then just pick up Burnout's Way for free during Advancement?

Or am I missing something?

-Jn-
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Marcus

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« Reply #3 on: (12:01:17/02-15-18) »
Character Gen programs always have issues, as far as I know, no "way" is free. They are all also totally terrible in 5th, and are best forgotten, until some book gets around to updating them out uselessness land.

Besides burnout has always been terribly inefficient way to build, why lose points you paid for?
« Last Edit: (12:04:35/02-15-18) by Marcus »
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #4 on: (12:16:43/02-15-18) »

My only other Adept has been a gunbunny who was philosophically against 'ware, so I'm certainly not an expert on the subject, but I thought the conventional wisdom was that things like Orthoskin and Muscle Toner were more efficient than their Adept Power equivalents?

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Marcus

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« Reply #5 on: (13:27:24/02-15-18) »

My only other Adept has been a gunbunny who was philosophically against 'ware, so I'm certainly not an expert on the subject, but I thought the conventional wisdom was that things like Orthoskin and Muscle Toner were more efficient than their Adept Power equivalents?

-Jn-
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It depends on how you build, we aren't in 4th anymore. Resistance pool isn't exactly hard to come by, Magic Armor the adept power isn't great or anything, but I would never take a magic hit for a couple point for armor. It's just to easy to get armor/resistance from gear.  Muscle Toner in the case prototype Trans is fine. Making a magic build that has, that kinda cash isn't super easy, but it can be done. But when you think about it, adept scale more easily and efficiently then their tech counter parts, you can add another power point for 13 karma, less if your in magic group, and that point can be a whole point of physical attribute or 2 points of skill, or another a level of improved Reflexes. A starting Adept with Improve reflexes 2 (+2 reaction +2d6) could go to level 3 for 13 karma or less. Doing that on a Sam takes 2 essence and over 200k. 13 karma is probably about to 2 runs,  200k is probably about 20 runs and that makes the very big assumption the character has 2 essence to spare.

The point is, it's lot easier to add power points then it is to add upgrade cyberware. A starting character shouldn't have a complete build right out of the gate, there should be room to grow, it makes for much more interesting characters that way. Further the advent of Ki foci, adepts now have a place to spend money to get still more power points. It's also good to keep in mind, adept don't have to simply be magic street sams, Adept Deckers, Face Adepts, you could even do a rigger adept, so there's lots of options, and once you have reach the peek of one activity type with your adept it's just as easy and efficient to begin pursuing another.

Also keep in mind augmented max is augmented max regardless of it being cyberware or Magic. One just takes lots of cash and the other a pile of karma.
« Last Edit: (13:42:25/02-15-18) by Marcus »
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JoeNapalm

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« Reply #6 on: (14:52:11/02-15-18) »
So...what I'm hearing is that it all balances out. Which makes sense.

This guy's Prototype Transhuman with Biocomp, but I spent that point on Bone Density 3 and Striking Callouses.

He threw magic and his Wolf Totem into Attribute Boost 2, Combat Sense 4, Crit Strike UA, Improved Agility I, Imp Reflexes 2...that's a first pass.

He looks decent enough on paper, with the caveats that A) I haven't really done Adepts much, B) I haven't really done melee or UA much, C) I haven't really done Humans much, and D) I'm not so much trying to eek every last Karma of efficiency out of him but don't want him to be a liability to the rest of his gimp team. :P

When I get a chance, I'll throw up a stat block and let the forum wolves savage him...

-Jn-

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #7 on: (16:50:10/02-15-18) »
Generally optimized adepts will take a point or two of 'ware, but they don't take the way for it.

Tecumseh

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« Reply #8 on: (17:51:22/02-15-18) »
I don't disagree with most of Marcus' points, but in situations like this I usually mention that GMs need to build characters too, and we often go for what fits the NPC rather than what's purely optimized. This is true for both 'ware (like Boosted Reflexes) as well as magic and qualities (like Ways). I wouldn't put a Way on a PC - as they are not a good value and I'm trying to stay alive - but I would on an NPC, who die in such great droves that I can't bother to optimize all of them.

There are also tables where the overall level of danger is modest, or the mechanics are suboptimal per the participants' consent, so Ways might be appropriate for a player.

@Joe, I'll be happy to savage your build when you post him. As an initial thought, I love Combat Sense and take it for all my adepts but R4 might be overkill. If you drop down to R2 then you save a power point that could boost Improved Reflexes to R3. You only lose 1 die to dodge (since Imp Reflexes will add a Reaction die) but will gain an average of 4.5 Initiative overall from the extra initiative die and the point of Reaction. That's hugely useful for getting extra initiative passes and/or Interrupt actions that can help keep you alive just as surely as Combat Sense will. Take it or leave it as you will.

FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #9 on: (20:01:33/03-02-18) »
I like Way of the Burnout/Restricted Gear  for Move-By-Wire 3 characters....


I think the consensus for Ways is that: 

If taken at chargen, it does count towards positive quality karma limit. 
If taken after chargen, they do not count double the way positive qualities do.   

Marcus

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« Reply #10 on: (21:40:30/03-02-18) »
I like Way of the Burnout/Restricted Gear  for Move-By-Wire 3 characters....

O_O Gemstar Move-by-wire 3? But but thats not safe!!!
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Glyph

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« Reply #11 on: (14:30:56/03-03-18) »
Move-by-Wire: 3 is really suboptimal for awakened characters, who have many less Magic-crippling way to increase their initiative.  The main advantage of Move-by-Wire: 3 is its incredible synergy with the Increase Reflexes spell.

Way of the Burnout is fairly useless for anyone planning on upgrading their augmentations to a higher grade later.  The Bio-Compatibility quality is usually a much better quality to pick.  In fact, you could get Bio-Compatibility and Prototype Transhuman for the cost of Way of the Burnout.

FST_Gemstar

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« Reply #12 on: (18:19:16/03-04-18) »
Way of the Burnout lets you start with MbW 3 at chargen for 4.00, letting a magical character get a solid point more of essence before permaburning. 

Biocompatibility became an option later, and leaves .5 essence.   

I have a softspot for being magic for the sake of growth options. 

If character stays above 1.00 essence, character can still regrow some magic. Letting them buy a mentor spirit, a weapon focus, etc. as well as take some fun adept powers.