[Bradd]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. The relevant rules for SR4A are on p. 183:

A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character's own visual senses - cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc. - cannot be used .... Line of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting modifiers.

Therefore, the RAW targeting requirements are:
* Natural vision (direct or reflected) OR
* Enhancements paid with Essence BUT NOT
* Other enhancements.

Note that it does not specify which kinds of sensors may be used for spell targeting, but merely that they must be paid for with Essence. Meanwhile, it does say that you use normal visibility rules, and I interpret that to include any sense that uses visibility.

[Morg]

Then you will have to wait until I find my SR3

However Ultrasound and Radar Sensors are "SENSORS" it uses an expert program to compile an image "map"
and therefor count as a technological visual aid that substitute themselves for the characters own vision witch means no spell targeting

[Mäx]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. The relevant rules for SR4A are on p. 183:

A metahuman spellcaster can target anyone or anything she can see directly with her natural vision. Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets, but any technological visual aids that substitute themselves for the character's own visual senses - cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc. - cannot be used .... Line of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting modifiers.

Thanks for the quote, i bolded the part witch stop radar sensor from working.

[Bradd]

Enhancements paid for with Essence are the character's own senses, and so that clause does not apply. Note how all of the examples are external to the character?

[Morg]

The moment you need an expert program to "Paint you a Picture" it becomes something similar to a simsense feed so therefor it is a visual aid

You have failed to move me by your argument, I remain firm on my stance

good chatting with you



- End of Line

[Ryo]

The moment you need an expert program to "Paint you a Picture" it becomes something similar to a simsense feed so therefor it is a visual aid

You have failed to move me by your argument, I remain firm on my stance

good chatting with you



- End of Line

That's an intentional misreading of the material on your part. The technological visual aid part is clearly a reference to external electric gear, not to cyberware paid for with Essence. An ultrasound sensor built into your goggles absolutely cannot be used, one built into your head can.

[Bradd]

Furthermore, if you think that software processing and imaging rules out magical targeting:

The thermal imaging camera would next employ a series of mathematical algorithms. Since the camera is only able to see the electromagnetic radiation that is impossible to detect with the human eye, it will build a picture in the viewer and record a visible picture, usually in a JPG format.

That's exactly how ultrasound and radar work in SR4A, and yet I don't see anyone disputing that it's legal.

[Ryo]

Another thought that just occurred to me: You have to remember that Magic and Essence are a two-way street. Once you rule that built in Radar and Ultrasound sensors don't count for LOS, then they also don't count as part of the body for the sake of magical targeting. Congratulations, your mages (and street sams, for that matter) can now make themselves immune to mana illusion spells at will.

[Mäx]

Another thought that just occurred to me: You have to remember that Magic and Essence are a two-way street. Once you rule that built in Radar and Ultrasound sensors don't count for LOS, then they also don't count as part of the body for the sake of magical targeting. Congratulations, your mages (and street sams, for that matter) can now make themselves immune to mana illusion spells at will.

Ofcource thay count as part of the body for magical targeting, that has no connection with what a mage can use to target spells with.
Also there's a whole lot easier way to become immune to mana illusions, all you needs is a camera tag pointing parallel to your own vision and have it sent it's video stream to your image link.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Which produces its own set of penalties for splitting attention between AR and the real world.  So there is still a net gain.

[raggedhalo]

All my PCs want me to come up with a reason of why they can't do something in technical detail.

Do they have high ratings of Cybertechnology, Arcana and some supplementary Knowledge skills like Physics?  If not, tell them to get stuffed.