[Morg]

Well, for what it's worth the developers have indicated that the main reason they don't consider Radar and Ultrasound to be eligible for spell targeting is for Game Balance, not necessarily in-game reasons.

ah your one of those people that say "please don't do that because it would break the game" I miss your kind of people.
All my PCs want me to come up with a reason of why they can't do something in technical detail.

[Ryo]

The reason I would say no to Targeting with ultrasound and radar is that sense relies on a large amount of computer processing in order for the metahmuan mind to use the sensory information. The Computer-Assisted Sensory Translation (CAST) technology in 139 Augmentation implies that our brains need help with the weird senses that we shove in.

As a GM The only way I would allow it is if the Mage underwent some extensive brain surgery (Witch may lead to burnout anyways)

CAST is specific to a rigger controlling a drone built out of a critter's body, not to ware stuck in the body. Although I could see you drawing a connection there, but then it should also apply to Thermographic vision, which we already know works fine for LOS despite being an exotic form of sensory perception that the brain isn't designed to interpret, unless you're a troll.

I also don't see how ultrasound and radar require any more computer processing than cybervision, especially those with Thermographic enhancement. The pictures they construct are created using rangefinding, which isn't that different functionally from how normal vision works, as its all light bouncing off a subject being picked up by sensory organs. The only difference is Radar uses radio waves, rather than visible light, and ultrasound uses sound waves.

There are better ways to deal with the game balance issue than outright outlawing something clever and interesting. Though if you really want to talk about game balance problems, what about Ocular drones? They're cybereyes paid for with essence and perfectly useable for LOS, but you can pop them out of your skull and control them like a drone.

[Morg]

An Expert system analyzes the Doppler shift in the bounced signals and converts the information into a three-dimensional "map"...

That sound like extra processing to me, low light and thermographic vision can go down the optic nerve with little effort

[Mäx]

I also don't see how ultrasound and radar require any more computer processing than cybervision, especially those with Thermographic enhancement.

Have you read the description for radar sensor, it's pretty clear that it, unlike cyber eyes, doesn't feed the sensor data directly to your drains.
Instead a computer program uses the data from the sensor to build an image that is then superimposed over the users normal vision.

edit: thanks for the quote morg

[Bradd]

Cyber eye doesn't construct anythink, it directly feeds the image to your drain.
Whereas Radar senser takes the radar singnals returning to it and makes a digital representation based on those radar signals and then superimposes it over you vision.
In this sense radar sensor is no different from remote camera feed, which also can't be used for targeting spells.

A cybereye is also no different from a remote camera, except that you pay Essence for it. When you pay Essence, you get to use it for spell targeting.

And thermographic imaging is no different from radar: You need to sense wavelengths outside the normal human range, analyze and process them into a form comprehensible by humans, and inject the result into the optic nerve. Both use cybernetics implanted in your head, both cost Essence.

More importantly, all of these "scientific" arguments are irrelevant. It doesn't matter how your implants grant you enhanced senses: "Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets" (p. 183, SR4A). That's all that counts, whether you've paid Essence for the sense. The only remaining argument is how literally to interpret "sight" in the targeting rules.

@Morg & Mäx: See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermographic_camera for a description of current thermographic sensors. They operate by receiving infrared inputs, calculating the difference from local ambient temperature, and then rendering it in a form that humans can understand. That is almost exactly the way Augmentation describes the radar sensor: It receives radio inputs, calculates ranges, and renders it in a form that humans can understand. Why do you think it's so trivial to process infrared imaging, and where's the substantive difference from processing radio imaging?

@Ryo: For what it's worth, the Shadowrun FAQ says that ocular drones only count as "paid for with Essence" when they're implanted in your body, not when operating remotely. However, the FAQ has a lot of dubious and contradictory rulings, and so a lot of us (including Mäx, IIRC) take it with a huge grain of salt or ignore it entirely.

[Bradd]

OK, let's step back for a moment. For those folks who don't think radar/ultrasound spell targeting should work, what's your fundamental objection? For example, if your real objection is that you think it's unfair or unbalancing, there's little point in discussing the physics of things, because that's just "fluff" to explain things in-game.

Some thoughts:
Targeting spells through walls is overpowered.
Ignoring invisibility is overpowered.
Peter Taylor (former Shadowrun line developer) ruled against it.
Only vision works, and these senses aren't vision.
Only eyewear works, and these senses are headware.
Only natural senses work, and these senses have too much processing.

[Morg]

OK, let's step back for a moment. For those folks who don't think radar/ultrasound spell targeting should work, what's your fundamental objection? For example, if your real objection is that you think it's unfair or unbalancing, there's little point in discussing the physics of things, because that's just "fluff" to explain things in-game.

Some thoughts:
Targeting spells through walls is overpowered.
Ignoring invisibility is overpowered.
Peter Taylor (former Shadowrun line developer) ruled against it.
Only vision works, and these senses aren't vision.
Only eyewear works, and these senses are headware.
Only natural senses work, and these senses have too much processing.

Now that we have some good reasons why you shouldn't do it, anyone have a good list why you should?

[Mäx]

@Ryo: For what it's worth, the Shadowrun FAQ says that ocular drones only count as "paid for with Essence" when they're implanted in your body, not when operating remotely. However, the FAQ has a lot of dubious and contradictory rulings, and so a lot of us (including Mäx, IIRC) take it with a huge grain of salt or ignore it entirely.

Most definitely including me, but luckily we have no need for that pile of crap to know that remotely operating ocular drone can't be used for getting LOS.

Ocular Drone: This enhancement only affects one eyeball per
purchase but it installs a small spyball drone in the user’s ocular cavity.
The spyball functions as a normal cybereye until the user chooses to
remove it and control it as though it were a standard spyball drone

The bolded part should be enough for that.

[Bradd]

OK, let's step back for a moment. For those folks who don't think radar/ultrasound spell targeting should work, what's your fundamental objection? For example, if your real objection is that you think it's unfair or unbalancing, there's little point in discussing the physics of things, because that's just "fluff" to explain things in-game.

Some thoughts:
Targeting spells through walls is overpowered.
Ignoring invisibility is overpowered.
Peter Taylor (former Shadowrun line developer) ruled against it.
Only vision works, and these senses aren't vision.
Only eyewear works, and these senses are headware.
Only natural senses work, and these senses have too much processing.

Now that we have some good reasons why you shouldn't do it, anyone have a good list why you should?

It's cool! (This is the most important reason, IMO.)
You can play magicians with non-traditional vision (a la Daredevil).
It fits the Shadowrun theme of melding man, machine, and magic.
The rules say you can use non-optical enhancements so long as they're paid with Essence.
The FAQ says that you can target spells with other senses.
Ultrasound is a vision enhancement.

Also, I didn't say those are good reasons to disallow radar spell targeting. I just want to know which ones really matter to you, so that we don't pointlessly argue fine points of things that don't address your real issues. I think some of those arguments are reasonable (even though I disagree with them), whereas others are just terrible. For example, Taylor's ruling is a disaster (see above for details).

[Ryo]

I'm not entirely sure why I brought up Ocular Drone, as I can easily see why it wouldn't work. Once the eye is removed, what connection exists between the eye and the body? The only one that makes sense is a wireless signal, which obviously doesn't work for LOS. Pulling your eye out and using that for LOS makes just as much sense as cutting your hand off and throwing it at somebody for a Touch spell.

Anyhow, Bradd gave a big list of stuff to see which ones were the basis of your desire to outlaw Radar Sensors, not because he was giving reasons why it shouldn't work. For one thing, I can shoot down every one of them.

Targeting spells through walls: Not actually an issue. What GM is gonna conveniently place your targets on the opposite side of a wall for you to pick off without retaliation? The real issue is seeing through Cover, which is better handled by applying modifiers than simply outlawing it outright.
Ignoring invisibility: I fail to see how a mage being able to spell cast at an invisible target with their radar sensor is any more unbalanced than a street sam filling the same target with lead with their own.
Only vision works: Already disproven with Touch spells.
Only natural works: would also disqualify cybereyes in general, especially thermographic vision.

The only two that really stand up are a developer saying 'no', though his excuse was pretty shoddy, and 'only eyeware works.' I can at least accept that distinction, though it's purely a mechanical difference with no flavor to support it. Considering Radar counts as a visual sense, a determined player could simply use the Build rules to make an eyeware version of the headware.

I like the idea of allowing it because its a neat idea, and I am generally against nipping a player's creativity in the bud due to an irrational fear of breaking the game. The only reason to outright outlaw an option in advance is if it has absolutely no redeeming uses whatsoever, and only exists as a gamebreaking cheat. The Emotitoy, for example, is really hard to rationalize as anything other than a cheat. There's a lot of nifty and clever ways a mage could use a radar sensor for the enjoyment of the entire group, so there's no reason to drop the hammer until the player starts to abuse it. At which point, you approach it the same way a GM should approach the other countless things you can abuse in this system: with extreme prejudice.

[Morg]

ok Bradd if it were as you say then the Spell Spatial Sense would provide a mystic link to target as it is the magical analog and I will go with magic working with magic before I will go magic working with machine (it is apparently a large problem for them to make Magitech just look at how few Magitech Items there are)

Secondly it would damage the utility of Mage Sight Goggles

[Bradd]

[Sorry to keep editing this. My thoughts are pretty disjointed today, and I don't want to keep replying to myself.]

I don't have a problem with using the spatial sense spell for targeting. Note however that it cannot detect security features, living things, or anything behind a mana barrier. However, it seems ideal for targeting geographical and structural features with physical spells, if that's what you want to do.

Note that magical targeting with cyber-enhancements is one of the areas where magic and tech do combine well.

Mages have many ways to attack through walls. They're all just different tools. Having more options doesn't sacrifice utility, they just give you different cost-benefit tradeoffs. Mage sight goggles have the shortest range but cost only money. Radar goes a bit farther but costs Essence too. Spirits have unlimited range but require a big skill investment. Ritual spellcasting takes a long time.

Anyway, you still haven't said what your basic objection is to radar. Why would you turn it down? What about ultrasound? Echolocation?

I personally think the best argument against radar is that it's simply a matter of taste. Some folks think it's cool, others think it's too much of a stretch to use high tech for magic. I disagree, especially when you consider some of the things that are by-the-book legal for spellcasting, like self-propelled fiber optic cables, and the new smartlink-assist gloves. However, if you think radar is just too unnatural for spellcasting, well that's entirely reasonable.

The next best argument is that spellcasting requires eyesight, and that augmented vision only works if it's eyeware. There's no solid RAW resolution to this question, because we don't know how literal the magic rules are about "sight," and the game liberally refers to headware sensors as "vision" or "sight." There's no solid RAI resolution either, because CGL reps have given diametrically opposed answers to the question.

Therefore, I think it's reasonable to rule either way on this issue, depending on whether you think it makes the game better or worse. I personally think it's a cool idea, and in line with the growing synergy between tech and magic.

[Morg]

In my opinion Radar and Ultrasound are to far removed from "vision"

Let me be more on target Radar and Ultrasound are to far removed from Optics

in SR3 (yes I am aware we are playing SR4) a magician needed Optic based cybereyes the electronic wouldn't work

so I am more on the bandwagon of this concept: all cybereyes are now of the optic type with the image link providing the extra feeds into the field of vision this is more preferred then saying the nature of magic changed between SR3 - SR4

[Bradd]

That's cool, that's one of the more reasonable objections, in my opinion. The main counterargument is that thermographic "vision" is also far removed from natural vision, in the same ways that ultrasound & radar are, and yet it's legal.

Also, consider: "Sight is the most common means of establishing a connection with a target (hence the range 'Line of Sight'), but by no means the only one" (http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#casting). The rules are vague about just how literally we should interpret "sight," and it often uses the word figuratively.

[Morg]

To clear up the issue SR3 pg 181 Spell Targeting I don't have the book in front of me to quote it