[Bradd]

Yeah, I don't think you can make a plausible scientific argument that allows thermographic cybereyes but not ultrasound and radar imaging. It's all going to the same place, in the same format. (And it's all paid for with Essence, beginning to end.)

You could argue that the requirement to see with eyes and visible light is a mystic/symbolic thing rather than a scientific one. However, as one of the Dumpshock posters noted, receiving the reflected radar with eyeware antennae is a simple matter of engineering. (Sensors are headware, so they're already in basically the right place already.) It's not much different in principle from using eye lights and low-light vision, which is allowed. And allowing infrared but not radio vision is pretty arbitrary, as both occur in nature, and they're adjacent on the spectrum.

You could argue mixing magic and radar just doesn't seem right, but meh. Matter of taste. There's plenty in this game that's based around interesting combinations of magic and tech.

You could argue that it's imbalanced, but there really isn't much that you can't do anyway. You don't really need a magician or radar to get the same sneak attack potential.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Satellite targetting and a Barret 121 at 1000 meters fall under that category, as well.

[Tagz]

The rationalization comes more from a game balance perspective then a scientific one.  While I don't want everyone to be equal-bland-carbon copies of one anther, giving every mage everywhere the ability to negate all LOS cover limitations using Direct spells, the type that typically has the smallest pool to defend against, all for the cost of .3 essence or less with higher grades?  I'm sorry, that's unbalancing.

If you don't think so, then by all means try it out.  As a GM I'm willing to host that game, but be forewarned that I'm more then willing to use it right back and a single mage with Control Thoughts that nobody can act on but another mage with Radar Sensor sounds like a quick TPK.

Also, your bringing science into a game that has dragons and fireballs.  If you were talking about the purely tech parts of the game I'd be fine with that, but magic routinely defies the laws of science in Shadowrun.  Why do you think a scientific argument would change how the magic works in this instance?  It's a requirement on the magic side not the tech side, and magic doesn't always conform to science.

Satellite targetting and a Barret 121 at 1000 meters fall under that category, as well.

Scary thought.

[Glyph]

The reason that ultrasound and radar sensors both fail as a valid means to target spells is that they don't directly give you a new sense.  The radar or ultrasound isn't going directly to your brain - a representation of that data is going to your brain.  You're not seeing the target, but a computer-generated representation of a target.  I could see the argument for allowing it if the data went directly to someone's head, but mere CGI, which is what this is, is not good enough for spell targeting (although you could certainly use it to get a better idea of where to aim an indirect spell).

[Ryo]

I'm not the one that's bringing science into a game with dragons and fireballs, Shadowrun is. The entire magic system is very well thought out, and is constructed as a kind of Magic as Science system. The explanation for why this does not work is also a scientific one. It doesn't talk about auras or mysticism, but rather, light stimuli striking the retina. I fail to see how a radar or ultrasound sensor constructing an electric image and transferring this data to your brain is any different from a cybereye constructing an electric image and doing the same. No matter how you slice it, a cybereye is also an electronic piece of equipment that must interpret the data it receives and send this to the brain in a useable fashion. Not only that, but what about a cyberlimb? How is a mage with a cyberhand using that limb for touch spells any different, considering the signals the body receives from it are purely electrical? When you pay for electronic sensors with essence, they become part of the holistic integrity of the body, and thus become compatible with spells.

I understand there's a balance issue to be considered, but in that case you just have to declare it abuse-able as a GM and severely punish any player that pushes it too far. There is no way I can see to rationalize it not working that wouldn't also affect other cyberware.

Plus you could always rule some pretty easy nerfs into it to stop your mages from shooting through cover. Much like Astral sight imposes a penalty for trying to take physical actions, you could rule that this Radar Vision would have a similar penalty against magical actions, thus imposing a -2. And since Radar Sensor says walls become translucent, but doesn't define how, you could rule it as being equal to Heavy smoke, which imposes an additional -4. That makes the total penalty here -6, the same as blind firing through a barrier, which seems fair for a mage trying to shoot through cover.

Alternatively, you could rule that a wall counts as light smoke, and thus would be -2, but that this is cumulative for every wall the mage is looking through. Presumably, the Mage isn't just standing out in the open, so he takes -2 for looking through his own cover, and an additional -2 for looking through his opponent's cover. You come up with a total of -4 here, and could easily up it to -6 again by ruling that the shooting from behind cover modifier still applies, even with his fancy radar vision.

[The_Gun_Nut]

I have no problem with tech giving any kind of advantage.  That's the point of technology, it's why we humans make it in the first place:  Technology gives an overwhelming advantage to humans vs. virtually any other living thing on the planet.

Ryo's idea of introducing a modifier to tests based upon what the mage is trying to zap through looks very workable.  I like it better than flat-out outlawing something.  Plus, there's always the concept I remind my players of when they start getting a little to crazy with whatever:  What's Good For The Goose Is Good For The Gander^TM.  That keeps abuses down, but also introduces new tactics and strategies to the game that can make play more interesting.

[Bradd]

@Glyph: Radar and ultrasound do go directly to your head, literally! It's headware that receives sensory input and injects it into your natural or cybernetic vision. The gear probably sits somewhere in your sinuses or behind your eyes, to give you the best field of view with minimal interference from your own body.

@Ryo & Gun Nut: I initially thought that a Visibility modifier would be appropriate for the translucency, but now I think a Partial Cover modifier would be most appropriate. That's what you use for firing through curtains, and it also seems appropriate or things like tinted windows and radar translucency.

[Tagz]

Well, if we're going to get into the science then why not, I'll bite.

I don't see why there is an assumption that cybereyes are wholly digital.  Electrically driven does not mean it is digital.  Nowhere in the rules is this stated and makes less sense to me then a combination of analog and digital parts.

Mostly I base my reasoning on that the brain wouldn't know how to interpret a digital signal.  A stream of zeros and ones could be interpreted as anything to the visual cortex, which is used to taking input in the form of electrical stimuli (analog signals) from the fovia (I believe, high school bio was a long time ago).  Additionally, it is Shadowrun cannon that the brain cannot directly interpret digital signals, one needs a simsense module to interprate digital signals into sensations.  The cybereye does not require a simsense module to use, so clearly the signal reaching the brain must be an analog signal, though I'm willing to hear a counter argument.

This leaves two options for how the cybereye works.  Either a digital camera that then translates information it picks up back into analog form or an analog camera, though the analog camera may have certain parts that are digitized.

Though either can work, translating light into a digital signal then back into analog again seems somewhat redundent.  But that doesn't rule it out.  What doesn't make any sense with this setup though is the other visual modes.  Thermo, lowlight, vision mag, vision enhancement, all of these take up either essence or capacity.  If the information is digital then converted back to analog, then why should it take up capacity?  Shouldn't it be software driven?  Is the software so complex that each one needs it's own storage space?  And if you say it's purely a game balance thing, then why is it ok to have THIS be a game balance call that makes no sense and the ruling on Radar Sensor and spellcasting isn't?

To me it makes far more sense given these things that it is an optical camera system.  AR can be achieved by putting a contact lens sized transparent screen in, the light from AR would be an analog signal.  Magnification is a physical lens movement.  Low light is achieved by use of an artificial tapetum lucidum (part of a cat's eye that allows enhanced night vision, basically cells behind the retina that reflect a small portion of light).  I'm at a loss for the moment on how to get thermograph, but if it exists naturally (Trolls, Dwarfs, etc) then it should be able to be artificially duplicated.  Recording could be an actual digital camera that recorded the image seen, this need not be placed in the path of the visual light.  Smartlink would function just like AR Image Link, Eye enhancement would be superior lenses.  Totally possible as an analog system.

This leads to the big point, when you see a spellcasting target with cybereyes the information relayed to your brain need not have even been digitized.  That is not the case with Radar Sense or Ultrasound, they HAVE to be converted from a digital form at some point (while analog radar systems do exist size is an issue, plotting time another, resolution, etc, etc.  At least I think so I only spent about a minute confirming the info on the net).  Anyhow, the fact that the information was digitized and then reproduced as an image means what your seeing is a picture representing the object.  No different then wanting to target via TacNet's AR display.

Anyhow, this is how I see it when I analyze the tech aspects, combined with the rule system.

[Bradd]

Whether you can target with cybereyes has nothing to do with whether they're digital. The rules make it plain that you need natural optics or Essence-paid senses, not both. The only question here is what counts as "sight," and if radar were eyewear rather than headwear there wouldn't be any question here whatever. That's why we're saying that it's purely a matter of game balance and taste, and the game balance really isn't a big deal.

[Ryo]

Additionally, it is Shadowrun cannon that the brain cannot directly interpret digital signals, one needs a simsense module to interprate digital signals into sensations.  The cybereye does not require a simsense module to use, so clearly the signal reaching the brain must be an analog signal, though I'm willing to hear a counter argument.

Radar and Ultrasound don't require a simsense module either. So by your own logic, these too must be an analog signal sent to the brain, correct?

I'm not sure what the difference is that you're drawing between digital and analog, or why you're assuming Ultrasound and Radar are one while cybereyes are the other. All three are electronic sensors installed in the body that replace natural visual senses. The source book does not differentiate between the three beyond that.

[The_Gun_Nut]

If you want to get real specific about it, the human eye sends digital signals because each chemical transmission is a quantum event (single chemical change).  The number of changes per unit time describes the intensity and the specific chemical involved in receiving the photon describes the frequency of light received.

So, yeah, digital.

[Mäx]

I fail to see how a radar or ultrasound sensor constructing an electric image and transferring this data to your brain is any different from a cybereye constructing an electric image and doing the same.

Cyber eye doesn't construct anythink, it directly feeds the image to your drain.
Whereas Radar senser takes the radar singnals returning to it and makes a digital representation based on those radar signals and then superimposes it over you vision.
In this sense radar sensor is no different from remote camera feed, which also can't be used for targeting spells.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Except camera feeds don't cost essence, and radar only translates a specific frequency of light to something that the neurons can handle.  Just like thermo, low-light, and normal cybereyes.

[Morg]

The reason I would say no to Targeting with ultrasound and radar is that sense relies on a large amount of computer processing in order for the metahmuan mind to use the sensory information. The Computer-Assisted Sensory Translation (CAST) technology in 139 Augmentation implies that our brains need help with the weird senses that we shove in.

As a GM The only way I would allow it is if the Mage underwent some extensive brain surgery (Witch may lead to burnout anyways)

[KarmaInferno]

Well, for what it's worth the developers have indicated that the main reason they don't consider Radar and Ultrasound to be eligible for spell targeting is for Game Balance, not necessarily in-game reasons.



-k