[Bradd]

Just want to check my reasoning here.

"Physical cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence can be used to spot targets" (p. 183, SR4A). Radar sensor cyberware "converts [radar] information into a three-dimensional “map” that overlays (or replaces) the user’s visual senses, similar in some ways to ultrasound .... The radar sensor uses the same Visibility modifiers as ultrasound." (pps. 36–37, Augmentation).

My interpretation is that you can use an implanted radar sensor to target spells. It's paid with Essence and appears to the user as normal vision, effectively the same as echolocation.

"Line of sight can even be established using reflective surfaces and through transparent objects, and is subject to normal visibility and lighting modifiers." (p. 183, SR4A). "The advantage to the radar sensor is that it can “see” through walls and other materials, which appear as translucent .... It is unaffected by visual tricks like camouflage and Invisibility spells." (p. 36, Augmentation).

My interpretation is that you can target spells through walls using radar, perhaps with a –1 Visibility modifier for the translucency (similar to light smoke). The main vulnerability is the sensor's low radar Signal: rating 2 only gets you 100m and is easily jammed.

[Mäx]

My interpretation is that you can use an implanted radar sensor to target spells. It's paid with Essence and appears to the user as normal vision, effectively the same as echolocation.

Neither of those is a visual sense and as such can't be used for targeting spell.
They both give you a visual image yes, but that doesn't make them usable for spell casting any more then a security camera feed into image link is.

For everything else, their as good(or better) as your visual senses, but spellcasting specifically needs a visual sense for gaining LOS.

[Ryo]

My interpretation is that you can use an implanted radar sensor to target spells. It's paid with Essence and appears to the user as normal vision, effectively the same as echolocation.

Neither of those is a visual sense and as such can't be used for targeting spell.
They both give you a visual image yes, but that doesn't make them usable for spell casting any more then a security camera feed into image link is.

For everything else, their as good(or better) as your visual senses, but spellcasting specifically needs a visual sense for gaining LOS.

Ultrasound is a visual sense, but echolocation isn't. Radar Sensor specifically says it overlays or replaces the user's visual senses, so it is also a Visual Sense.

As it's cyberware and you're paying for it with Essense, that means you're taking a permanent hit to your Magic score for this. That seems like a fair trade off. The way it reads, its legal, and if I were the GM, I'd allow it.

[Bradd]

Ultrasound is definitely a visual sense: It is a vision enhancement (p. 333, SR4A) and uses Visibility modifiers. Magically speaking, it makes just as much to see with sound as it does to see with heat, and scientifically speaking, it makes just as much sense to detect things with radio as infrared, so both of these have just as good a claim to spell targeting as thermographic vision.

The rules do disallow technological substitutes for vision like "cameras, electronic binoculars, Matrix feeds, etc.," but they specifically alow "cyber- or bio-enhancements paid for with Essence." The security camera feed isn't paid for with Essence, so you can't use it for spell targeting even with an image link. However, an implanted ultrasound or radar sensor is paid for with Essence, and it functions as vision, so it doesn't matter that they aren't natural vision.

As for echolocation, I personally think the rule is intended to emphasize "the character's own visual senses" rather than "the character's own visual senses." Or to put it another way, if it quacks like vision – it targets precisely and uses Visibility modifiers – then it counts as vision for the sake of spellcasting. This is the same reason I think you can use touch to target line-of-sight spells even though touch isn't literally a visual sense.

[Wyldknight]

The problem with this is that it allows spell casting through solid objects. At that point it stops being Shadowrun and starts being whose mage can nuke the other team first when the other team can't even hurt him.

Oh ya, that sounds like lots of fun.

[Bradd]

Ritual spellcasting, conjuring, and astral projection all ignore walls, so if that's your concern then the game is already broken. Also, it's not that tough to protect against penetrating radar. It's only signal 2, so it's very easy to block with a jammer or inhibiting paint (which is already standard practice at a lot of places, for wireless security).

[Ryo]

Getting it costs the Mage a permanent loss of their Magic score, which is a huge BP penalty they have to take. Plus it would only work with Direct spells, as Indirect spells would hit the wall and stop.

It's more nifty than gamebreaking, if you ask me.

[Wyldknight]

Ritual spellcasting, conjuring, and astral projection all ignore walls, so if that's your concern then the game is already broken. Also, it's not that tough to protect against penetrating radar. It's only signal 2, so it's very easy to block with a jammer or inhibiting paint (which is already standard practice at a lot of places, for wireless security).

Ritual spell casting requires a someone to mark the target so no, it doesn't go through walls since the marker has to be there. There is ritual casting with something like a blood sample of the target but at that point if they can get your blood sample they could probably just out right kill you either way. Conjuring summons a spirit which can be easily killed from Force 6 down (done it tons of times) and they can't go through a wall that's properly defended astrally so that's balanced and even if they did they still have to come to the physical plane which means you can defend against them unlike this, astral projection can't hurt any one on the physical unless they are dual natured so that doesn't really have anything to do with the subject.

Jamming is pointless thanks to a decent ECCM, in fact even the best jammers have never actually jammed me or my teammates in a single game. Most people don't paint every inch of a building...in fact no one does. So that doesn't change the fact that when everyone is taking cover in a fire fight people will start dying with no way to defend themselves because the mage can see through all cover making it pointless.

He could find a corner, sit there, set up a spirit in front of him to block bullets (or grenades) and just nuke everyone from a safe spot without any worries about the enemy. In any video game that junk would be nerfed on day one. You know, unless everyone does it. Which would make sense since in this set up the only thing which could stop him would be another mage or a swarm of drones sacrificing themselves until one gets a clear shot.

Getting it costs the Mage a permanent loss of their Magic score, which is a huge BP penalty they have to take. Plus it would only work with Direct spells, as Indirect spells would hit the wall and stop.

It's more nifty than gamebreaking, if you ask me.

You make full magic mages? I've never made a mage without essence loss and I still throw 13-15 dice out of Chargen. That isn't a huge penalty at all, in fact taking a hit to your essence is usually more cost effective with the right gear. Direct spells are some of the worse, all they can be defended with against is will power and (hopefully they have it) counter spelling. Indirect spells are kind of a waste when an assault rifle can get the job done with more damage and without hurting you.

I think it's pretty game breaking when someone can hit your whole team from behind a wall and you can't see them. How is it balanced when one character can start picking people off without a chance of defense? They can't even take cover because it sees right through cover.

[Ryo]

10 to 25 BP is a huge penalty, no matter what your build. That's more than worth a 'shoot certain spells through certain walls' ability. And quite frankly, anything you can see through with a Rating 2 radar sensor, you can also shoot through with a big enough gun. Seeing through walls is not nearly as gamebreaking as you want to make it out to be. It's not like the GM is gonna conveniently place your enemies on the other side of an impenetrable barrier without any means of getting to you while you snipe them with your spells.

As for the Jamming issue, Radar Sensor is always Signal 2. The higher ratings do not increase the signal, and you can't install ECCM on it since it doesn't have a System rating. Hard to call it broken when you can completely kill it with 1500 nuyen.

[Bradd]

Ritual spell casting requires a someone to mark the target so no, it doesn't go through walls since the marker has to be there. There is ritual casting with something like a blood sample of the target but at that point if they can get your blood sample they could probably just out right kill you either way.

Ritual spellcasting never requires a physical presence; you just need an astral spotter. "The target does not have to be astrally active (and it’s often safer for the spotter if she isn’t); the spotter must just be able to assense him." (p. 185, SR4A) If that isn't convenient, you can use a tissue sample or even an object that the target has handled. Want to take out all the security at a site? Break into the guards' locker room and use their street clothes for sympathetic links.

Conjuring summons a spirit which can be easily killed from Force 6 down (done it tons of times) and they can't go through a wall that's properly defended astrally so that's balanced and even if they did they still have to come to the physical plane which means you can defend against them unlike this, astral projection can't hurt any one on the physical unless they are dual natured so that doesn't really have anything to do with the subject.

If a room is properly warded against astral intruders, then it's also warded against spells cast through the walls and windows. That's about 4–6 extra dice of spell defense. Otherwise, spirits can slip right through, materialize, and attack. Sure you can fight back against the spirits, but you can't touch the conjurer. And if Force 6 isn't enough, summon Force 7.

I think it's pretty game breaking when someone can hit your whole team from behind a wall and you can't see them. How is it balanced when one character can start picking people off without a chance of defense? They can't even take cover because it sees right through cover.

What about mage sight goggles? If the room has a door, you can stick a scope or mirror under it, same result. If the room doesn't have a door, you can drill a hole through the wall. If they've gone to the trouble to keep you from drilling through the wall, they've probably blocked radar and astral travel too. Like Ryo said, it's a novelty and a convenience, so that you don't need to fuss with the mage sight goggles.

And these tricks are hardly limited to magicians. Crack under the door? Feed in a tube and gas the room. Even better, use your radar sensor to locate your targets and the wall studs. Shoot through the drywall between the studs: The targets get only +2 Armor, nothing more. With a high-powered rifle, you'll have everyone down before they know what hit them.

Want to prevent this? Same thing works well against both mages and snipers shooting through walls: drones.

Wait, strike that. Monitor your site via sensors, and take out intruders remotely with gas. If they're protected, send in the drones to take off their gas masks.

[Mäx]

However, an implanted ultrasound or radar sensor is paid for with Essence, and it functions as vision, so it doesn't matter that they aren't natural vision.

Yes for ease of use they act like vision, but getting LOS for spellcasting requires an use of an actual visual sense and radar defenedly isn't a visual sense.
Using radar sensor your not seeing anything except a computer made image based on the data provided by the radar.
Here's a pretty good post from the former line devoleper explaining why radar doesn't work

[Billy_Club]

I was starting to wonder until you posted that link.  Quite interesting.  I would have house-ruled that it doesn't work regardless, but the link is pretty telling.  Still not set in stone because the rules are a bit vague, but I'd stand by the "it doesn't work" argument.

[Ryo]

However, an implanted ultrasound or radar sensor is paid for with Essence, and it functions as vision, so it doesn't matter that they aren't natural vision.

Yes for ease of use they act like vision, but getting LOS for spellcasting requires an use of an actual visual sense and radar defenedly isn't a visual sense.
Using radar sensor your not seeing anything except a computer made image based on the data provided by the radar.
Here's a pretty good post from the former line devoleper explaining why radar doesn't work

That's...a terrible explanation. I seriously feel cheated by that explanation, and am horribly disappointed that a Developer came up with it. Wait, former developer? Would this guy's opinion on the matter still be considered reliable Word of God, as it were?

Saying that all spellcasting requires a mystic connection that must be forged through the physical eyes completely invalidates the possibility of a mage with Cybereyes, as they would also composite a completely electronic picture, and also seriously hampers the function of touch spells. And I like how he had to throw in 'when it comes to metahumans,' in order to not include any mystical critters that don't need, or have, normal vision.

I can understand a developer deciding it can be abused and wanting to make up a reason why it doesn't work, but that explanation was not a good one.

[Bradd]

Spell targeting when it comes to metahumans, for yet unknown reasons, is linked to visually (or alternately astrally) targeting a subject with the sense of sight - and by extension to what the metahuman eye can see. Why this is metahuman thaumaturgy hasn't yet worked out, but whether a spell is LOS or touch it always requires a mystic link (the spell targeting part) that is enabled by the sense of sight (whether physical or astral) - taste, sound, smell and even simple touch do not work.

While this is an interesting way to answer the question of whether you can use touch to cast a line-of-sight spell, it contradicts the rules as written: "Some spells can only be cast on targets that the caster touches—these targets do not need to be seen" (p. 183, SR4A, emphasis mine). This rule is not new to the Anniversary edition; the same text appears on p. 173 of SR4.

Synner's post also contradicts the Shadowrun FAQ, which allows any reasonably precise sense to substitute for vision. I'm no fan of the FAQ, but it's at least as authoritative as a former developer's forum posts from two years ago.

Anyway, Synner's argument relies on the premise that it isn't enough for a sense to be "visual" or a "vision enhancement": You actually need visible light falling directly on eyes. Ultrasound doesn't count because it isn't light, and radar doesn't count because it's a computer model and not direct sensory stimulus.

That premise is false, obviously so in the case of touch spells. It falls apart elsewhere in the details. For example, Synner allows thermographic vision but not radar vision because "unusual parts of the visual light spectrum" are OK but "electronic composite visual representation of non-visual sensory data" is not. However, radar is also just an unusual part of the light spectrum, and anything you see via cybereye is certainly an electronic composite. In both cases, you've got an electromagnetic sensor, an image processor, and a neural link, no difference. Sorry, but if you're going to rely on nitpicky scientific details you've got to do better than that.

The post is well-intended, but ultimately it's just science-babble rationalization for a desired result, with some premises that blatantly contradict the rules. Sorry, but I don't find that compelling at all.

Meanwhile, the rules still say that ultrasound is a vision enhancement.

(Or in short: What Ryo said!)

[Ryo]

And lets not forget that anybody with a cursory knowledge of sensory function knows that you don't see with your eyes, you see with your brain. The Occipital lobe is what's doing all the work there. You can have totally functional and healthy eyes, but if you have damage in your occipital lobe, you're as blind as it gets. There's even a quality in Runner's Companion that references this. (Page 108, Reduced Sense)

The only way a Radar sensor could possibly work as advertised would be for it to be connected to the Occipital lobe. It collects stimuli from radio waves (a type of light), then gives this information to the Occipital lobe in a way the brain can comprehend it. At that point, you are officially seeing that radar picture, by every definition of the word 'see' there is.

Ignoring real world biology though, it's still considered a Visual Sense by the rules, as Bradd pointed out. Without a specific note in the rules or errata disallowing it to count for LOS, then its legal.