NEWS

Kill Code

  • 228 Replies
  • 28322 Views

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
« Reply #195 on: <09-01-18/1005:35> »
The build is function primarily b/c it's gonna always gonna go first. It's flexable b/c it's 6 rating skill soft.
 As to if you can pay sub I have done it several games. Really up to your GM. You can certainly do it in missions play.
If you don't like thats, fine but, keep in mind plenty of current TM builds could easily be adapted to this.

Anyways, I don't think anyone has become uncivil over the course of the conversation.

I'm fine with restart the converation some where else. Do folks have an idea how to fix the power?


If you still feel the need to fix it, Iīd say impose a maximum Rating of Orginal Rating*3. Thatīs the maximum the (equally named) Greater Sprite Form (p.93), so it would be consistent ;)
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #196 on: <09-01-18/1018:28> »
If you still feel the need to fix it, Iīd say impose a maximum Rating of Orginal Rating*3. Thatīs the maximum the (equally named) Greater Sprite Form (p.93), so it would be consistent ;)

Base Item Rating = X  Augmented maximum = 3x ?

I'm not sold simply b/c all the problems we are discussing basically remains.

MBW 1 going 3 is still no good and MBW 2 going to 6 is also game breaking.

I'd suggest something more along the lines of Bonus equal to 1/2 hits to whatever the ware does.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6268
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #197 on: <09-01-18/1102:27> »
Maybe a time limit?

"this ability can be used for (resonance)Combat turns per day" ?

would that help the balance of this ability?

(Remember, I don't have the book yet, so I can't read up about it yet...)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #198 on: <09-01-18/1111:02> »
the build is correct from a karma perspective.

if you have herolab i can send it over for you to play with.

his effective resonance is 4 due to his deamon.

i did miss the lifestyle cost but that can be added in quite easily, just convert that flashy sleeping tiger to some regular armor.

he doesn't need more skills than he has due to....skillwires.... so he's not a "skillless wonder", he's the exact opposite.

i mentioned the 2 sustaining penalties, they are -2.

so the only relevant/ accurate issues you guys have noticed is the skillsoft subscription cost.
i did account for the $20k for the first month but you are right in that in missions play this may be difficult to sustain.

i suspect that could be addressed with sum to ten, even less skills and more resources to buy skillsofts, ill check it out when i get a chance.

reaver your comment is well taken and youll be happy to hear that while the errata team does spend it's time fixing borked drek we aren't tasked with balance stuff. however if something is clearly broken we will suggest errata for it.


adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #199 on: <09-01-18/1118:33> »
if you were looking to bring overdrive down to earth you might consider just limiting it's effects to the max rating the ware can normally obtain.

that would at least limit it to what a sammy can achieve.

this build would mostly lose initiative but retain all the skillwires access, which as daidalon notes is partially limited by skillsoft cost.

but only partially as it's exponentially cheaper to acquire a new skill via activesoft vs karma (rating 6 skill costs 42 karma/ rating 6 activesoft costs $30,000 or 15 karma).


Iron Serpent Prince

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 383
« Reply #200 on: <09-01-18/1132:32> »
I finally gave Kill Code a thorough once over.  There is still plenty to digest, but I think I can give a decent quick review.

  • The Good:
         Kill Code makes Technomancers exciting again.  And, dare I say it, cool again.  Not to mention potentially playable again.  All of this is very good.
         Matrix Overwatch characters now have things to protect Team PANs.  Before they were just watered down unattended Fairlight Calibans when it came to the defense of team gear.  Now they have Matrix Actions that give them defensive options.
  • The Bad:
         Kill Code doesn't really fix anything about the Matrix itself.  If you had an issue, or issues, with the way the Matrix and everything that involves it worked, you won't find a fix in this book.
         You may have heard a rumor that there is a way to bypass MARKs in the book, and it is in there (Reckless Hacking, page 37).  It is in there, but at a -5 die pool penalty per each MARK ignored, it cuts most Matrix Jockey's die pools in half to ignore one MARK.  This is because a purpose built Decker will have their highest die pool in Brute Force or Hack on the Fly to get the MARKs needed to do things, and the remaining Matrix Action die pools will be at 10 - 12 dice.
  • The Ugly:
         Kill Code makes playing Matrix Jockeys more complicated / difficult to play.  How many tables out there were actually thinking "you know what?  Deckers are too simple / easy to play."  Now there are Matrix Actions that penalize targets that do not require MARKs.  (One example:  Tag, page 40)  That means your Matrix Overwatch character won't know they are happening, or that they need to do anything about it.
         The gear chapter.  Without fixing Noise and / or Noise Reduction, Kill Code introduces more ways to ramp up Noise.  Not to mention ways to punish tech based characters, as if Noise wasn't punishment enough.


Unless I missed something tremendous, I would call this a "meh" book overall.  There is plenty of good in it, along with plenty of bad.  If your table isn't going to cherry pick from Kill Code, you might not like good enough to put up with the bad.

kainite311

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 166
  • PC's are just murder hobo's...
« Reply #201 on: <09-01-18/1138:15> »
The build is functional primarily b/c it's gonna always gonna go first. It's flexable b/c it's 6 rating skill soft.
 As to if you can pay sub I have done it several games. Really up to your GM. You can certainly do it in missions play.
If you don't like thats, fine but, keep in mind plenty of current TM builds could easily be adapted to this.

Anyways, I don't think anyone has become uncivil over the course of the conversation.

I'm fine with restart the converation some where else. Do folks have an idea how to fix the power?

Honest questions. I will set aside the stat dumping to 1 in multiple stats (GM's differ on opinions), the lack of skill diversity (and incomplete for actual hacking runs)
How is the build viable when it relies on unobtainable dice pools to reliably pull off the trick? To boost anything by 4 levels with overdrive you need at least 7 successes on the Threading test. We can rule out using edge being a factor due to the inherent low stat that is a by product of trying to make this (usually read as no special stats, or used what little they had to boost resonance to the max 3). A threading skill of 20+ is darn near impossible to pull off reliably.

Then as I mentioned before, there is the whole physical fade damage aspect on average of 3 (physical fade damage because it requires more net hits then your Resonance, even at 6 resonance, still physical damage). So -1 wound penalty (no magic healing/first aid, only time like magic drain...) all day long. Plus the -4 penalty for sustaining

The matrix damage almost bricks it alone. And may the gods help you should should you glitch, critical glitch (while extremely rare, almost as rare as the mythical 7 hits on the threading test based off Res 3 + skill 6(+2). Beware the gremlins ability that some adepts, spirits, critters, mages can toss a you. Also those fancy new bullets that do matrix damage to your stuff.

I admit I don't know how the subscription for skillwires works, so this may not be an issue. But noise... or a jammer, noise grenade, bullets. Yes noise is fairly easy to reduce, but nothing has been allotted to it yet. so more resources to (if noise works on it, again I am not up to speed on subscription, so ignore this if noise has zero effect ever).

Extrapolating past chargen, just to get MBW2 (delta to stay at 3 essence) and best case scenario you dropped 312,000 (doable). And then spent 47 karma on grade 3 submersion, and 75 karma to boost resonance to 6 (and your still taking physical damage :( ) Your thread skill only improved from 11 to 14. Or you dumped that same 122 karma into software skill and get +3 skill (boost from 6 to 9 skill, same numbers for the thread roll).

Just because something has the potential to do something, doesn't mean we should overlook the actual odds/chances or even viability of attaining that something outside of the end result possibility on paper. I don't do statistics, but it feels like a 3% chance to pull off, and a 1% chance to cripple yourself. Maybe some math guys can run the numbers of getting 7 successes at various skill levels starting at 11 on up, and also the glitch chance (I know slim....) More often then not it seems like you will only get +2 (3-4 successes) boost, still suffer the same 7 matrix damage, and same Fade (Level 6 + 1 for the Form, and then -2 sourcer quality)

To me it feels like the boogeyman on paper, but then you actually roll and play it for a few runs and go "this doesn't really work out well at all". Again GM's differ, but I personally don't take all these side affects lightly (reliable -5 dice pool penalties, mitigated down to -3 with drugs, but now we are easily addicted thanks to low body of 1). 7 Matrix damage, plus glitch cripple effects. Countered by gremlins power/spell/adept, and enemy hacker (data spike, rsonance spike, any matrix damage matrix action, let alone the other hacking things). Personally Magic boosting is worse to me for abuse (reagent plus focused concentrate shenanigins for 4 combat/stat buffs running out of char gen)

These aren't personal attacks on anyone, but it seems like the potential in theory is overshadowing the actuality of being able to achieve it. Potentially I can jump from here to the moon, actuality, probably not (bad euphisim, I know)
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

kainite311

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 166
  • PC's are just murder hobo's...
« Reply #202 on: <09-01-18/1200:59> »
the build is correct from a karma perspective.

if you have herolab i can send it over for you to play with.

his effective resonance is 4 due to his deamon.
Don't need hero lab, it's in the Overdrive description-
Daemon has no effect until you submerge (Zero divide by 2, round up, is still zero):
Quote
Every time the Cyberadept goes through Submersion,
they align their body, spirit, and cyberware. This
means that a Cyberadept who has Submerged may
restore Resonance that has been lost to cyberware
(and only cyberware) by an amount equal to half
their Submersion Grade (rounded up)

Quote
i did miss the lifestyle cost but that can be added in quite easily, just convert that flashy sleeping tiger to some regular armor.

he doesn't need more skills than he has due to....skillwires.... so he's not a "skillless wonder", he's the exact opposite.

i mentioned the 2 sustaining penalties, they are -2.

so the only relevant/ accurate issues you guys have noticed is the skillsoft subscription cost.
i did account for the $20k for the first month but you are right in that in missions play this may be difficult to sustain.

i suspect that could be addressed with sum to ten, even less skills and more resources to buy skillsofts, ill check it out when i get a chance.

reaver your comment is well taken and youll be happy to hear that while the errata team does spend it's time fixing borked drek we aren't tasked with balance stuff. however if something is clearly broken we will suggest errata for it.
So your not using priority method? Cause the skills are still out of whack otherwise
Also we addressed you can't boost the skill level from the subscription I thought, killing the second half of this build back to normal, or was Dandelion wrong?
As to the rest, I have stated multiple times the the side effects and reliability of pulling off the rolls needed and all the penalties (damage) that come with it.
You have yet to state HOW you achieve these miraculous rolls other then winning the lottery odds. A mage can summon a force 10+ spirit which is a wrecking machine, and way more reliably
« Last Edit: <09-01-18/1205:40> by kainite311 »
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)

adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #203 on: <09-01-18/1202:45> »
kainite his overdrive pool is 12.

that's 4 net successes on average.

post edge for 3 more successes on average resulting in 7 net hits on average which ends up supplying +4 to his MBW rating while threading overdrive.

he has two edge, so he'd typically use one when he needs to head into combat.

with edge recovery happening after a nap he would have access to this more often than not.

regarding fade he's rolling 9 dice averaging 3 hits which would reduce his fade from 8 to 5. that's pretty bad as it's physical damage because it exceeds his resonance of 4.

luckily kill code includes a new type of sprite, the companion sprite. luckily cyberadepts are particularly adept at summoning them (they get +2 to compile and register them). companion sprites can use the shield power to let you offload a point of fade to them, reducing your fade down to 4 physical for -1 to actions.

that could be problem...perhaps he should be using this overdrive at rating 4 until he can submerge or improve his willpower...let's see rating 4 overdrive would result in 1 stun on average (after his sprite pal helps out) and lose him 2 from his dodge pool and 8 from his initiative resulting in a net initiative of 21+2d6 (down from 28+2d6). Probably a worthwhile swap out to reduce fading to something more manageable.

noise shouldn't be an issue once you get those activesofts loaded they aren't going away.

sustaining penalties are -1 for overdrive on his mbw or at most -2 for mbw and skilljack due to psyche use.

not sure why you want to increase MBW post chargen?
so not sure what relevancy that comment has?

TL:DR when you factor in fading this guy out of chargen should probably throttle his overdrive thread down to rating 4 so he doesn't cripple himself from fading. this will reduce his initiative from 4 passes to 3 passes on average. He's still very fast and has access to high rating overdriven skillwires but he's not quite as stupid fast out of chargen.

EDIT: you're correct re daemon, thanks for that! it would reduce his resonance to 3, dropping one dice from the associated pools. luckily overdrive rounds up so even 3 successes is enough to boost his MBW from 1 to 3 (see example above).

the skill karma is correctly allocated via standard priority, i can see it right in herolab. do you want a screeny or the herolab file?


« Last Edit: <09-01-18/1208:34> by adzling »

daidalon

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 15
« Reply #204 on: <09-01-18/1206:16> »
the build is correct from a karma perspective.

if you have herolab i can send it over for you to play with.

his effective resonance is 4 due to his deamon.

i did miss the lifestyle cost but that can be added in quite easily, just convert that flashy sleeping tiger to some regular armor.

he doesn't need more skills than he has due to....skillwires.... so he's not a "skillless wonder", he's the exact opposite.

i mentioned the 2 sustaining penalties, they are -2.

so the only relevant/ accurate issues you guys have noticed is the skillsoft subscription cost.
i did account for the $20k for the first month but you are right in that in missions play this may be difficult to sustain.

i suspect that could be addressed with sum to ten, even less skills and more resources to buy skillsofts, ill check it out when i get a chance.

reaver your comment is well taken and youll be happy to hear that while the errata team does spend it's time fixing borked drek we aren't tasked with balance stuff. however if something is clearly broken we will suggest errata for it.

Sigh, this is why I tend to haunt forums instead of partaking of them. Once 2 sides clash, it becomes VERY clear that people stop actually reading posts and instead jump halfway through an explanation. See below as I address and rip holes in all your bandaids, and reiterate the vast sea of points you have thusfar ignored.

So, you used karma gen for it, got it

1st off: the daemon requires at least 1 submersion to reduce resonance lost. You can't submerge at chargen, so you inly have, at best, 3 resonance.

2nd off: You are almost certainly taking physical fade from this that can't be reduced in anyway barring a LUCKY edge roll (after your insanely lucky roll to get that thread to start with) for your skilljack and skillwires. So add another -1 to everything.

3rd off: your skillsoft subscription + lifestyle is, at a minimum (barring ltieral murder hobo cheese) puts your monthly costs in at a MINIMUM of 22K per month, and much more likely to be more due to costs incurred per run. At most tables, that is liable to be most, if not all, of your nuyen. What THIS means is that, barring a very generous GM, you are rarely if ever going to be able to purchase anyskillsofts.

4th off: This build may go first, but, accounting for all your penalties, your "primary combatant" dicepool of 15-18 has dropped to 12-15. Still good, not great, and your dodge dicepool has dropped to, at best, 12 (one full auto or long burst away from just all the pain). So you may take out one guard, but then are most likely screwed.

5th off: On the topic of skillsofts and this build: the roll when using skillsofts is attribute + skillsoft rating + modifiers. When using a skillsoft network, there is an automatic -1 dice pool modifier for using it (lowering its effective max rating to 3). You are also eating, at a minimum, -2 dice pool due to your sustaining penalties, bringing that effective rating down to a skillsoft rating of 1. This was all assuming no physical drain taken, a MASSIVE assumption with this build, but it is much more likely to be be in the realm of an effective rating of 0 to -1. In terms of straight math, this means that, for your best dicepool, before accounting for your lack of gear or compensation for anything or the other myriad of penalties, you have a whopping 6 dice, at best, for any skill. You would have been MUCH better off taking jack of all trades and, after a few runs, branching out your skills. It would be stupidly cheaper in the long run compared to your skillsoft subscription.

6th off: All of those penalties I called out above? YEah, they also ALL apply to your purchased skillsofts. All of them save for the -1 from skillsoft network. So your BEST effective skillsoft rating (after penalties) is... 4. And that's assuming you manage to ever purchase a skillsoft, which, as proven above, is very veryu unlikely given just how much you are investing every single month into this build.

That effective 4 (purchased at 6, reduced by penalties) skillsoft costs you 30K. The karma to get a rating 4 in a skill is 20, or 17 with JoaT. This means you save a whopping... 5 karma equivalent per skill for every mythically attained skillsoft you just achieved, at best, or only 2 compared to just having JoaT. IF you take any physical fading from this to get another -1 penalty, your effective rating drops to 3... at which point it is jsut better to have purchased it with karma, full stop.

You also STILL can't edge any test using them, you have likely physical damage, and your character will never be advancing through nuyen unless your GM is insanely nice to you... which is a table by table argument.

7th off: He is actually a pretty skillless wonder. Given you need to sustain those 2 complex forms and likely damage for the entire run, or brick your gear multiple times per run dropping and recasting, asssuming you don't kill yourself from it, you can reduce all your natural dicepool by -2. Which means this character has 10 dice to hack, bette rknown as a completely useless hacking dicepool. A medic with that stealth commlink and an attack dongle is comparable to you, and it would frankly cost less.


Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 665
« Reply #205 on: <09-01-18/1211:08> »
Can we please try and get away from the overclocked MBW issue? I have a feeling that the different sides on this wonīt be able to convince each other anytime soon, and the constant posting and reposting of builds and numbers games starts to bloat the thread  ::)

The unanswered questions around noise, teamwork and other mushy things about the Matrix are a more important issue. I donīt know if these are actually supposed to be answered in Kill Code, which is a supplement after all. But at the end, Kill Code Errata that affects Core mechanics might as well be called Core Book Errata  ;)
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

daidalon

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 15
« Reply #206 on: <09-01-18/1212:33> »
kainite his overdrive pool is 12.

that's 4 net successes on average.

post edge for 3 more successes on average resulting in 7 net hits on average which ends up supplying +4 to his MBW rating while threading overdrive.

he has two edge, so he'd typically use one when he needs to head into combat.

with edge recovery happening after a nap he would have access to this more often than not.

regarding fade he's rolling 9 dice averaging 3 hits which would reduce his fade from 8 to 5. that's pretty bad as it's physical damage because it exceeds his resonance of 4.

luckily kill code includes a new type of sprite, the companion sprite. luckily cyberadepts are particularly adept at summoning them (they get +2 to compile and register them). companion sprites can use the shield power to let you offload a point of fade to them, reducing your fade down to 4 physical for -1 to actions.

that could be problem...perhaps he should be using this overdrive at rating 4 until he can submerge or improve his willpower...let's see rating 4 overdrive would result in 1 stun on average (after his sprite pal helps out) and lose him 2 from his dodge pool and 8 from his initiative resulting in a net initiative of 21+2d6 (down from 28+2d6). Probably a worthwhile swap out to reduce fading to something more manageable.

noise shouldn't be an issue once you get those activesofts loaded they aren't going away.

sustaining penalties are -1 for overdrive on his mbw or at most -2 for mbw and skilljack due to psyche use.

not sure why you want to increase MBW post chargen?
so not sure what relevancy that comment has?

TL:DR when you factor in fading this guy out of chargen should probably throttle his overdrive thread down to rating 4 so he doesn't cripple himself from fading. this will reduce his initiative from 4 passes to 3 passes on average. He's still very fast and has access to high rating overdriven skillwires but he's not quite as stupid fast out of chargen.

Dicepool of 11

You can't post edge to break limtis, and you can't both pre and post edge. So you are going to eat fading.

Using this before heading into combat completely negates your entire point of skillwires, as you won't be able to use them. You would need to use at the start of the run to matter at all.

You recover edge after a full night's res tand a good meal, not after a nap. It is a limited resource, not recovered at the same rate as stun.

If you reduce it to a rating 4 overdrive, he loses almost all of his ability to use skillsofts and most of his benefits. He is in the realm where drugs or other augs would work better, and still liable to be eating damage (see prior post).

If you lose wireless connection, you lose your skillsoft network activesofts, as per skillsoft network description. You don't download them, you stream them. Additionally, complex forms must target a matrix entity, which goes away if you are jammed. As you have 0 noise reduction, and fresnel fabric can't be aimed at yourself as it involves orienting your body, you have 0 noise reduction ever. A rating 6 jammer kills this character without a roll, period. In fact, most of the CZ would kill this character's abilities.

This can keep going, but, to be frank, I am done beating this dead horse. I think we've made enough noise that, should you ever propose this to the erratta team, it won't be forgotten just how full of holes this build is. See you all in another 6-8 months.

adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #207 on: <09-01-18/1214:10> »
see my notes above that answer all yours and kainites points.

his initiative drops from the lofty 28+2d6 down to 21+2d6, resulting in 1 stun fade.

skillwires remain at rating 4 or 5 depending on what activesoft ratings you have access to.

so he ends up with rating 6 skills in his core competencies and 4 in anything else, not bad at all considering he can shoot, hack and dodge with the most hacker/ sam/ adept builds.

out of chargen as he submerges and raises his resonance overdrive just becomes more and more powerful without any upper limit.

adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #208 on: <09-01-18/1217:02> »
Can we please try and get away from the overclocked MBW issue?

agreed, done.

thanks for your input kainite and daidalon, all good points.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #209 on: <09-01-18/1231:41> »
if you were looking to bring overdrive down to earth you might consider just limiting it's effects to the max rating the ware can normally obtain.

It solves some problem certainly but i still don't like it.
It's intended to boost TM combat effectiveness so lets just do that.
I'd vote for something simple like limitedly thread-able Smartlink complex form and a free level of bio-compatibility.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking