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adzling

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« Reply #150 on: <08-31-18/1026:05> »
yeah but imagine the insanity of a techno who has move by wire rating 1 who kicks it up to rating 5 (it only goes to rating 3) with this powah.

that would confer a rating 6 skillwire system (as high as it can go) as well as +5 reaction, +15 initiative (+20 including the reaction bonus) and +2d6 initiative.

assuming a base reaction of 4 and intuition of 5 this monster techno would end up with a dodge pool of 14 dice, initiative of between 32 and 47 (average of 40).

im sorry but this power was poorly conceived as this was just my first attempt to break it, im sure there's far worse stuff if i give it some more thought.

there's lots more stuff that is this op in the book unfortunately (nom, nom cheap ass datachips to make drain redundant).

overall i think this book has some great ideas but suffers from insane power over reach resulting from poor rules comprehension by some of the writers.

shadowrun really needs a more coherent approach to rules authoring, it needs a a rules committee that can identify this shite in advance and edit them for insanity.

Marcus

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« Reply #151 on: <08-31-18/1141:26> »
i am happy the qualities. They do what was needed. But the stream are a real issue even pet sprite at 1 karma per level so for 10 karma you use prespend edge, break the limit and you have level 10 with infinite service. That just need some language that prevents it from being edged, and it will be workable.

But yeah I’m concerned. I want TMs to be viable 100%, but a repeat of the end of 4th helps no one.

As to skill argument many will agree with your point. But others won’t.



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adzling

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« Reply #152 on: <08-31-18/1154:35> »
yeah in my example above the standard 6 resonance/ 6 software techno will generate, on average 4 net hits or +2 to his move by wire rating.

If he post edges it then he's now, on average, getting +4 to his move by wire (or any other cyberware) for a total of a rating 5 move by wire.

that's game breaking.

and that's out of chargen.

so yes, this power as written is totally broken.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #153 on: <08-31-18/1251:46> »
and that's out of chargen.

Your point stands, but that is NOT out of chargen.

Move-by-Wire 1 is 3 Essence, so that puts the Technos Resonance at 3 with a Max of 3.
The Essence loss recovery won't kick in until Submersion 2, as you can't get back 0.5 Resonance.

It is still entirely doable, just not out of chargen.
« Last Edit: <08-31-18/1320:39> by Iron Serpent Prince »

adzling

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« Reply #154 on: <08-31-18/1324:33> »
actually the cyberadepts daemon resonance bonus is rounded up so at submersion grade 1 you get +1 resonance back from that move by wire.

So the techno would have a resonance of 4 / max resonance of 4.

that's close enough to make this work but you could get your resonance up to 5 with the right chargen tricks (exceptional attribute, restricted gear, cyber-compatible, etc).

once you hit submersion grade 3 this becomes cray-cray, especially if you have increased your resonance in the meantime.

the only thing holding it back is matrix damage to your ware but that is not really a hindrance as it's free to repair matrix damage and can be done relatively quickly with minimal tools (see sidebar in kill code).

this is just another example of why srun needs a rules committee with folks who understand the mechanics and have real system mastery.

as is this particular complex form is just exploit-garbage.
« Last Edit: <08-31-18/1327:34> by adzling »

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #155 on: <08-31-18/1330:10> »
Has it been ruled somewhere that Adept Ways / Resonance Streams / etc do not count towards Positive Qualities?

Even if it has, you are sure pushing that 25 Karma limit on Positive Qualities mighty hard there.

If it hasn't, you are back to dealing with only Resonance of 3 out of chargen.

Remember, you can't Submerge at chargen.

adzling

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« Reply #156 on: <08-31-18/1345:36> »
good questions Serpent.

Adept Ways are meant to count towards PQ in chargen, so i would assume that Resonance Streams are meant to as well.

which would make it darn hard to get your resonance above 4 out of chargen with this exploit.

with resonance 4 this is still very doable, your just rolling 10 dice for overkill instead of 12.

if you took a specialization in software: overkill then you'd be back up to 12dice for this complex form out of chargen.

so that puts us back at the horrifically egregious exploit i just outlined, no need for resonance above 4.

you just need $40k at chargen to afford the move by wire 1.
for that you get a dodge pool that eclipses most sam's, an initiative that beats the fastest sam or adept in the group and to top it off you can slot so many rating 6 skillsofts it's not even funny.

who needs a team when you've got this one man swiss army knife?


daidalon

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« Reply #157 on: <08-31-18/1352:19> »
Something extra to add: ware CANNOT, in any way (as per erratta) boost you past the +4 attribute limit.

Additionally, move by wire does not have a normal rating increase. It has a specially called out levels. Lvl 1 gives + 3 init, lvl 2 gives +6 init +1 init die, lvl 3 gives +9 init + 1 init die. These are with a reaction bonus of +1, +2, and +3 respectively.

Additionally, something to remember. Ware is expensive as balls, and you need, at a minimum, priority C to be a technomancer. And that, should you take move by wire at chargen, you lose all resonance at that tier.


TLDR: Can you probably do some broken shit with this? Almost certainly. But it isn't even REMOTELY as bad as you guys are implying. It only affects a handful of ware that has variable ratings, most of which raises attributes which means it has a hard cap of +4. It doesn't buff implanted smartlinks. It doesn't make your cyberears suddenly able to hold more stuff. It does bugger all for your cyberlimbs. Most importantly, you need to have eaten the insane essence lost to get that ware, which means this should not be considered with anything close to a large dice pool (unless you are dealing with players actively trying to break the game, in which case, congrats: everyone loses in that case! Yay!).

Compare it next to shit like 1 karma quickening just all of the buff spells, and the fact that spotting TMs is now not super hard/it is now really goddamn easy to take out TMs powers, and I think you all are jumping at a ghost that isn't there.

Now the Groveler quality... yeah, that shit needs to go or cost ALOT more. It does more than reageants, and costs next to nothing to make fade just never an issue again. I've already banned that quality full stop.

daidalon

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« Reply #158 on: <08-31-18/1415:15> »
also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

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« Reply #159 on: <08-31-18/1426:14> »
also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

I don't have Kill code yet, and while I don't disagree with what you are saying, there is something to remember as well,

Many tables use Sum to 10 creation. which means that their resources and base stats are usually higher then you are thinking, thus paving the way for more exploits.

Thanks to the many optional rules and optional creation rules and plain old "PC fuckery" things go pear shaped real quick.... And in my experience the more.. "optional" elements used at the start is a strong indicator of just how Borked things can and will get...

Food for thought.
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daidalon

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« Reply #160 on: <08-31-18/1437:01> »
also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

I don't have Kill code yet, and while I don't disagree with what you are saying, there is something to remember as well,

Many tables use Sum to 10 creation. which means that their resources and base stats are usually higher then you are thinking, thus paving the way for more exploits.

Thanks to the many optional rules and optional creation rules and plain old "PC fuckery" things go pear shaped real quick.... And in my experience the more.. "optional" elements used at the start is a strong indicator of just how Borked things can and will get...

Food for thought.

I actually based my initial calculations on sum to 10 (I just couldn't see any benefit lowering your attributes EVEN MORE would give you for this nutty build idea).

But yeah, as said, if people are TRYING to break or exploit the game, then they will, and no one wins. See as I have been repeating.


Also, to Aadzling: Move by wire adds no bonus to your dodge aside from the increased reaction. Intiiative != dodge, even though they use the same attributes
« Last Edit: <08-31-18/1442:48> by daidalon »

Finstersang

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« Reply #161 on: <08-31-18/1534:24> »
I really donīt get it, either. All of the more crazy stuff with that complex needs a lot of sacrifices as well. If someone really builds his TM around some nutty MBM-based concept build, who gives?

Keep in mind that MBW is one of the most invasive augmentations on the market and that the side effects will also increase with rating. Now on paper alone this "only" means -1 to your social limit per rating point. Narratively speaking, you will look like some dead-eyed spastic marionette. Also, read what a MBW actually does to your body! You really really really  donīt want to mess this shit up. Glitch on the complex Form or fry the system and you are lucky if you donīt die from a Grand Mal. Not to mention that you need to keep an augmentation that has full control over your movements wirelessly active to pull this off! If someone really wants to take that risk, I say let them have the reward. 
« Last Edit: <08-31-18/1537:12> by Finstersang »
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Marcus

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« Reply #162 on: <08-31-18/1610:57> »
You want someone to go at 20+int+rec +3d6?
your looking at something 30-40 initiative.

By the way I went looking for it, but couldn't find reference where it says you can't submerge in creation. It's always been played that way, can someone find that reference? ty

There plenty of time to errata this. We can get the whole build sorted.
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #163 on: <08-31-18/1633:34> »
can someone find that reference? ty

This post:

Quote from: Patrick Goodman
Status: Official

Rules Clarification (P. 98, Spending Your Leftover Karma)
Add the following paragraph after the second paragraph.

"You cannot spend Karma to initiate (p. 324) or submerge (p. 257) at character creation."

adzling

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« Reply #164 on: <08-31-18/1644:54> »
no offense but you're totally wrong.

please go re-read the entry on move by wire in chrome flesh as your example is just not accurate in the slightest.

then come back and edit your post to conform with reality and we will have something to discuss.

mbw does use ratings
mbw does add to your reaction (admittedly limited by +4 cap)
it also adds to your initiative, which is not limited by +4 cap (it's not an attribute)

Something extra to add: ware CANNOT, in any way (as per erratta) boost you past the +4 attribute limit.

Additionally, move by wire does not have a normal rating increase. It has a specially called out levels. Lvl 1 gives + 3 init, lvl 2 gives +6 init +1 init die, lvl 3 gives +9 init + 1 init die. These are with a reaction bonus of +1, +2, and +3 respectively.

Additionally, something to remember. Ware is expensive as balls, and you need, at a minimum, priority C to be a technomancer. And that, should you take move by wire at chargen, you lose all resonance at that tier.


TLDR: Can you probably do some broken shit with this? Almost certainly. But it isn't even REMOTELY as bad as you guys are implying. It only affects a handful of ware that has variable ratings, most of which raises attributes which means it has a hard cap of +4. It doesn't buff implanted smartlinks. It doesn't make your cyberears suddenly able to hold more stuff. It does bugger all for your cyberlimbs. Most importantly, you need to have eaten the insane essence lost to get that ware, which means this should not be considered with anything close to a large dice pool (unless you are dealing with players actively trying to break the game, in which case, congrats: everyone loses in that case! Yay!).

Compare it next to shit like 1 karma quickening just all of the buff spells, and the fact that spotting TMs is now not super hard/it is now really goddamn easy to take out TMs powers, and I think you all are jumping at a ghost that isn't there.

Now the Groveler quality... yeah, that shit needs to go or cost ALOT more. It does more than reageants, and costs next to nothing to make fade just never an issue again. I've already banned that quality full stop.
« Last Edit: <08-31-18/1658:41> by adzling »