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Xenon

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« Reply #75 on: (16:57:32/08-12-18) »
I can't find anything supporting that you may use matrix perception to get a list of all icons in the vicinity that have an illegal icon. Where did that idea originate from??


You may use Matrix Perception to Spot "one" specific device that you (for some reason or another) "know" about.
- If the device is running silent then it get to oppose the test.
- If it is not running silent and is within 100 meters then you automatically spot it.

The Matrix Perception test will not be fooled by Change Icon (or Change Icon with Wrapper). If you see a Nissan Jackrabbit 200 meter down the street and successfully take a matrix perception test to spot its Icon you will spot it's icon. It doesn't matter if the icon in this case have an appearance of a Mitsubishi Nightsky.


You may also use Matrix Perception to ask "questions" about "one" specific icon.
- If you (for whatever reason) suspect that the specific icon is using a non-standard (or even illegal) appearance then you may use one of your net hits to find out what the icon really is.
- For example, if you walk pass a Nissan Jackrabbit you might notice that it's augmented reality overlay tells you it is a Mitsubishi Nightsky. This in turn might be reason enough to suspect that the device is not using a standard appearance.



Change Icon can be useful in that it let you blend in
(Look like you belong; "If you’re going into a crowded host, for example, why run silent?")

Wrapper can be useful in that it let you hide things that normally stick out
(Ninjas often disguised themselves as regular peasants; "The best place to hide a rock is in a pile of rocks")

Telin

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« Reply #76 on: (18:29:17/08-12-18) »
@Iron Serpent Prince

Firstly, all great points. However, I think there are a few things you've overlooked. In my opinion.

1: Wireless off
Yes, you are right, turning wireless off is a great way to sneak items into an area where there are no MAG-scans but there is security around.
However, to say that it is unfathomable to have a reason to need the item connected to the wireless is shortsighted. The explosive connected to the comlink, for example. If we needed to control when the detonation was going to occur (say, with no one in the room), then we couldn't just have it turned off, or on a timer. I mean, if you really want to make sure that NO ONE is going to access a thing...Faraday Cage.

As for Change Icon. Yes, I can change Icon, but there are specific things I can't do with that action alone. I can make a gun look like a weapon, a file look like a scroll...all the normal stuff. However, the icon must give a clue as to what the icon does (In the case of Devices)...
(SR5 CRB (219)
Quote
Basic Matrix protocols require device icons to provide some hint of their real-life function. A firearm’s icon looks like a weapon (even if that weapon is a tomahawk, like the icon of the Super Warhawk pistol), a vehicle’s icon looks like a vehicle, a lock’s icon looks like a lock, a refrigerator looks like a cold box for food, etc. The restrictions on devices aren’t as stringent as on personas, as long as form suggests function at a glance.
)
So without wrapper I can't make a Pred. V look like a music file...

As for matrix perception, well this gets a little...specific. I'll get to that in a moment. For now though, the matrix protocols.

The issue here is that it might violate protocols. Sleaze actions, and Attack actions generate OS, but Data Processing doesn't. Change Icon is a DP action, thus no OS. The question is: what does wrapper do to allow these icon changes. Does it skip the validation step in the Change Icon action, thus the Matrix doesn't know anything wrong has happened? Does it just tell the Matrix, 'Hey, it's this thing just trust me.'? Does it just put the item in a Virtual WAN? Truth is, it doesn't matter.

Because it's a DP action thus it doesn't generate OS, and the effect is: The Icon can now be anything you want it to be.

As for matrix perception, the thing here is that yes, you need 1 hit to ID 1 icon as being wrapped.

SR5 CRB (235)
Quote
When you take a Matrix Perception action, each hit can reveal one piece of information you ask of your gamemaster. Here’s a list of some of the things Matrix Perception can tell you. It’s not an exhaustive list, but it should give you a pretty good idea about how to use Matrix Perception:
• Spot a target icon you’re looking for.
• The most recent edit date of a file.
• The number of boxes of Matrix damage on the target’s Condition Monitor.
• The presence of a data bomb on a file.
• The programs being run by a persona.
• The target’s device rating.
• The target’s commode.
• The rating of one of the target’s Matrix attributes.
• The type of icon (host, persona, device, file), if it is using a non-standard (or even illegal) look.
• Whether a file is protected, and at what rating.
• The grid a persona, device, or host is using.
• If you’re out on the grid, whether there is an icon running silent within 100 meters.
• If you’re in a host, whether there is an icon running silent in the host.
• If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below).
• The last Matrix action an icon performed, and when.
• The marks on an icon, but not their owners.

The bolded action is what allows you to discover the wrapped Icon. You mentioned the underlined one as well. And that is a good point as well. However, my three counter points as as follows.

  • If you are within 100m you spot the icon, not get additional info from it.
  • Who checks a non-persona icon with a persona specific check?
  • A Matrix Perception check with 1 hit can reveal if an icon is wrapped.

To kind of elaborate on the first two points:
If your GM decides to, yeah you see every icon within a pan within 100 yards...great, PANs are kinda pointless with clutter-cleanup. Oh well.
How often do you try and drive your toaster to work? How often do you try to change the channel of your oven? These sound silly but that is essentially what the Persona->Program question is when used on a non-persona icon. 100 times out of 101 the answer is going to be none. That being said, the one time your toaster gets you to work, that raises more questions than answers.

For the last one, it's a numbers game.
SR5 CRB (241)
Quote
MATRIX PERCEPTION
(COMPLEX ACTION)
Marks Required: none
Test: Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] (v. Logic + Sleaze)
This versatile and important action is used both for finding icons in the Matrix and for analyzing Matrix objects. When you use this action to analyze a Matrix object or scan the vicinity for silent-running icons, you make a Simple Test and your hits determine how much info you get. For each net hit scored, you can ask for one piece of information about the object—this could be type, a rating, how many marks it has on it, any files it may be carrying, which grid it is using, whether any silent running icons are in the area, or any other pertinent Matrix information. You learn one fact per net hit. If you get a list of marks, you can only recognize marks you have seen before or marks left by personas that you have marks on yourself. Otherwise you only get a count. If you’re trying to spot an icon that is farther than 100 meters away, this is a Simple Test: the first hit lets you spot the target, and any additional hits can be used to get more information about it as mentioned above. If you’re looking for an icon that is running silent (after you’ve determined that it’s present), the test becomes an Opposed Test, with the target defending with Logic + Sleaze. Net hits are used just like you would for spotting distant targets, with the first one for spotting the target and the rest for analysis.

Bolded text is the important thing. If when I walk into a building and the Sec-officer walks up to me immediately and wants to know why I have a wrapped icon...I am calling bullshit to the GM. Unless I am in the middle of an empty Faraday caged room and it is only me a spider and a sec-officer. There are going to be hundreds or thousands (or more) icons to scan, and each one requires a complex action.

For the scenario where I am stopped the moment I walk in the door means that as I walked in the Spider looked at everyone in the room, saw my wrapped icon, Matrix perception'd it, asked 'Are you wrapped?' and then told the Guard this was the case. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No.

Yes you are right, the checkpoints and choke points could have a guy there doing nothing but Matrix Perceptions all day, however my counter argument to that is three fold:
1: That is a mind numbing job that eventually the guy hired to do it is going to slack off...
2: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shadowrun/comments/6bduwu/lets_talk_about_rule_zero_shadowrunners_exist/
3: That isn't fun for the players.

Maybe this is just me and my group of players, or not. However at the end of the day the players should accomplish their goals.

The first game I was in my GM was starting up and we had a simple run. Essentially steal A for B for profit. (I can't even really remember why, or who) What I do remember is that in our leg work the Gun-bunny Street Sam got impatient shot a guy we were looking for, which set us off being chased by the police through all of Seattle before we ducked the car under an over pass and blew it up with a grenade before ducking through the sewer. [Because the car was tagged in KE systems...]

My point being that while that sounds interesting...it wasn't. EVERY time we did anything we had the cops on us. We had no options. It was strangling. We were not struggling to make ends meet, we were actively being pushed down and suffocated.

Quite simply: Wrapper isn't crap. It is a tool with a specific purpose and uses, and sometime there are better ways, and sometimes there aren't...

You are attempting to create a false dichotomy, intentionally or otherwise. Wrapper doesn't generate OS (nothing said it does), it does work as written (Icon does change), and it can work within the matrix as written.

My only issue with how Wrapper interacts with the matrix is the part I pointed out: does a wrapped gun still show up as dangerous--thus always there--or not? (Which I would argue not personally...)

Also, Is your name a reference to Exalted? Cause it sounds like it...

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #77 on: (10:35:53/08-13-18) »
Also, Is your name a reference to Exalted? Cause it sounds like it...

No, but now that you mention it it would totally fit.  It is taken from a Gnome Decker character I made that followed the Wuxia Code of Honor.  I rolled randomly three times on the lists I found of the 108 Stars of Destiny.  If I recall correctly, I rolled up Iron Prince Serpent and thought that didn’t have a good ring to it so I switched it to Iron Serpent Prince.  Only afterwards did I realize that the characters monogram was ISP and that was a pretty good pun for a Decker.

The issue here is that it might violate protocols.

The thing is, Wrapper says that is violates Matrix protocols.  Right in the description.

Quote from: Core book, Page 246
Wrapper: This program overrides the Matrix’s protocols for icons. While this program is running, your icons can be anything you want them to be when you use the Change Icon action.

Any other time a character messes with Matrix protocols, they generate OS.  I mean, even just checking your OS generates OS…




As for the Matrix Perception.

There are several people, some right here on these forums, who describe Matrix Perception as akin to setting “filters” on searches.  And that is (or at least should be) a really good description.  Listing, or “spotting”  if you prefer, the Icon you are looking for is very similar to doing queries on a computer.  Funny that.

As such, something like:

“ls -l /dev/*.wrapper”

Would totally be a thing.  I mean if you can forgive me mashing up OOP with *nix style CLI.

For the Matrix to function, it has to track several things.  Every Icon has to have a unique ID of some sort.  I admit I default to thinking of it as an alpha numeric string, but it could be anything.  The Matrix just has to be able to access it, even if users normally don’t interact with it.  This way the Matrix “knows” that that Renraku Sensei is completely different than this Renraku Sensei even if everything else is the same.  Let’s assume there is a way to clone commcode just to make this simpler.
On top of this ID, the Matrix has to track location data, and Icon type.  It probably also tracks everything you can pull from a Matrix Perception test just to save it from having to query all the Icons in the world every time someone does a Matrix Perception…  But that isn’t certain.
The Matrix pipes all of this data, along with any specific appearance alteration code, into a persons Deck and / or comm.  Technically, it is being piped into every device with a Data Processing rating (all of them), but most people don’t use their cyberfinger to do Matrix Searches…
The device then uses all that raw data to overlay / generate the view of the receiving person.

That means the device has received all of the data already, even if the user doesn’t normally interact with it.

In a very simplified way, all of this data can be considered key:value pairs.  Obviously it is more complex than simple key:value pairs.  The concept still holds.  Anyone who has worked with any form of database; relational, graphical, whatever, can tell you that any information you can pull out can also be used as a search term.

No matter the structure of the Matrix, the functionality is the same.  It stores information, and characters pull that information out as they see fit.  If you can get the commcode of a device with a Matrix Perception check, you can also use that information as a search term.  As in “I want to spot that icon with the commcode of <fill in the blank>”

As such, “I want to see the Icons running Wrapper” has to also be a viable Matrix Perception check.

If the Matrix doesn’t work the same as modern systems, I’m talking about on a functional level – not necessarily foundational (no pun intended) level, then that has to be specifically pointed out to players so that they have a chance to know that their understanding of their world differs from the game world.
It would be like if the world of Shadowrun didn’t have gravity and instead had anti-gravity.  The players need to know that if their characters aren’t actively trying to stay on the ground, they would float up into the atmosphere, and eventually into space.

Even if all of this doesn’t hold up.  That only changes the methodology.

It then changes to security doing Matrix Perception – Spot Deck Icon on each person, using 1 hit to get a list of running programs.  If one of those happens to be Wrapper, then not only is the person potentially committing a crime (it is a Hacking Program, and therefor needs a valid license to use) and can be detained right there, they are also hiding something.  And then we are right back where I said that the security will start inspecting each Icon to see what the Wrapper user is hiding.

And after all of this….  Even if everyone's view of the Matrix hasn't changed, the last three or so posts should make it pretty obvious that the whole Matrix Perception / Matrix / Icon interaction ball of wax could use some cleaning up.

Xenon

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« Reply #78 on: (11:54:44/08-13-18) »
The thing is, Wrapper says that is violates Matrix protocols.  Right in the description.
Data Processing actions does not generate overwatch score. Only Attack actions and Sleaze actions do. Change Icon is a  Data Processing action. Change Icon only change the appearance of the Icon. Even if you are running wrapper you are still only changing the appearance of the Icon (the only difference is that without wrapper the appearance of your gun still need to be a weapon of sorts while with wrapper your gun can be whatever you like it to be - it doesn't even need to be a device). From a matrix point of view (at least far as the Grid Overwatch Division is concerned) violating matrix protocols in this manner is not considered an illegal action.

SR5 p. 232 Overwatch Score
The moment you perform an illegal action (Attack or Sleaze), you get an Overwatch Score, or OS, that your gamemaster uses to track how much evidence you’ve been leaving in your wake. When you perform an Attack or Sleaze action, your OS increases by the number of hits the target gets on its defense test.

SR5 p. 246 Wrapper
While this program is running, your icons can be anything you want them to be when you use the Change Icon action.

SR5 p. 238 Change Icon
Test: none (Data Processing action)


For the Matrix to function...
You are making a lot of assumptions now.
Assumptions that might or might not be correct.


The Matrix pipes all of this data, along with any specific appearance alteration code, into a persons Deck
Actually, if you have Direct Neural Interface then your mind will interface directly with devices around you.

SR5 p. 222 Direct Neural Interface
A direct neural interface, or DNI, connects your brain to electronic devices.


This is the reason why, if you have DNI that is, you no longer need things like earbuds or image links to hear or see augmented reality objects located on devices around you.

SR5 p. 222 Direct Neural Interface
DNI is also useful for AR in that you don’t need any additional gear like earbuds or an image link to see or hear augmented reality objects.


If you can get the commcode of a device with a Matrix Perception check, you can also use that information as a search term.  As in “I want to spot that icon with the commcode of <fill in the blank>”
Yes....

* You may use Matrix Perception to Spot "one" specific device that you (for some reason or another) "know" about.
* You may also use Matrix Perception to ask "questions" about "one" specific icon.


As such, “I want to see the Icons running Wrapper” has to also be a viable Matrix Perception check.
Now you are assuming stuff again ;-)


If you spot a specific icon that you have reason to believe is not using a standard appearance then you may use one of your net hits from a matrix perception test to check what it really is.

SR5 p. 246 Wrapper
Another persona can see what the disguised icon really is with a Matrix Perception Test, but they need to at least suspect enough to check (Matrix Perception, p. 241).


Spot Deck Icon on each person...
While the deck is in use it's device icon is merged into a persona icon.
You could even go so far as saying that it no longer exist within the matrix as long as the owner is using it.

SR5 p. 235 Persona
When a person uses a device to connect to the Matrix, the device’s icon is subsumed by the persona’s icon, so it’s basically gone from the Matrix until the persona jacks out.


But yes, you may use one of your net hits from a matrix perception test to see cyberprogams being run by a persona.

SR5 p. 235 Matrix Perception (red box)
* The programs being run by a persona.


If one of those happens to be Wrapper, then not only is the person potentially committing a crime...
In this edition cyberdecks are not forbidden devices (as they were in earlier editions)
Hacking programs, such as wrapper, are also not forbidden software.
As you pointed out yourself, the player might very well have have a [fake] license.


And then we are right back where I said that the security will start inspecting each Icon to see what the Wrapper user is hiding.
Eh....

With this line of thinking you may also let security start body searching characters that broadcast a [fake] SIN which also happen to have a [fake] license to carry a concealed weapon (because weapons may be used in future crimes and if they are concealing a weapon then they might also be concealing something else!).

Iron Serpent Prince....
It is not the GMs job to "win" against the players ;-)


edit: adding page references and fixing a few typos
« Last Edit: (12:16:28/08-13-18) by Xenon »

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #79 on: (12:34:12/08-13-18) »
You are making a lot of assumptions now.
Now you are assuming stuff again ;-)

Of course.  Because players are counted on to be bringing in the basic assumption that a game world functions and acts just like their world.

If for no other reason that is saves on word count.

If a player is supposed to enter a game forgetting all they know and the game system then has to point out everything that functions the same in the real world, all rules systems would have to be at least three times as big.

A games' rules system has to point out when things operate differently than the world of the player.


Iron Serpent Prince....
It is not the GMs job to "win" against the players ;-)

Since when did this become about GMs doing anything to players?  Remember, the "bad guys" can use Wrapper against the players too.  If the system doesn't function in some sensible way, way even use that system?

I don't know what your whole motivation is.  It certainly isn't coming across as helpful in any way.

Xenon

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« Reply #80 on: (13:37:45/08-13-18) »
The book tell you that if you suspect that one specific icon is not using the correct appearance then you may use matrix perception on that specific icon to find out what it really does.

You are of course free to rule that you may use matrix perception to "spot all icons in the vicinity that are using an illegal appearance" (your table, your rules), but what I am trying to tell you is that this isn't RAW and I honestly don't believe it is even close to RAI either.


Since when did this become about GMs doing anything to players? 
I thought it was clear, but maybe I need to expand on that.

If a GM decide to randomly detain my decker as he walking through a checkpoint for no other reason than I am running wrapper (which I have a license to run) when I specifically used wrapper to disguise a wireless devices in order to avoid being detained at the checkpoint in the first place then I would call BS.

Same as I would call BS if a GM detain my street samurai just because I went through the hassle to actually get a license to carry concealed firearms for my concealed firearm so I don't get detained at the security checkpoint in case they spot my concealed firearm

(I think both examples showcase the same level of "GM-abuse").

If the players find cool and interesting ways of using wrapper (or [fake] licenses or whatever) to get the job done then I think the GM should support them rather than turning their ideas against them. I don't know... maybe it is just me?


Remember, the "bad guys" can use Wrapper against the players too.
Of course the bad guys may use wrapper too! I am counting on it :)

But please recall what I said in my first post...

The Matrix Perception test will not be fooled by Change Icon (or Change Icon with Wrapper). If a bad guy is pointing an Ares Predator V at you but you successfully take a matrix perception test to spot its Icon you will spot it's icon. It doesn't matter if the device is running silent or if it's icon in this case have an appearance of a toaster or a music file.

Telin

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« Reply #81 on: (15:55:36/08-13-18) »
Sorry, the GM abuse thing probably started with me... My intent was to demonstrate that checkpoints and the like shouldn't just spot a hidden icon...that's probably on me...

Also you are right, players are expected to bring in certain base assumptions about how the world works. That can't be avoided.

However, I have a few things to point out about the Matrix.

You need to Spend Matrix Perception Hits on an Icon to get information about that Icon.
The Matrix is not the internet.
The Matrix is run by the Big10--who all enlist Shadowrunners and their own corp. Espionage teams.

So Matrix Perception should. Now I am assuming that the rules were not written for people familiar with OOP, Networking, or the like. So Personally I assume the matrix works something akin to a Walking version of the Jurassic Park system. (It's a unix system). Spending hit is querying specific icons about available data. I can understand thinking of is as setting filters and I like aspects of that explanation as well. However, the issue is when people try to say what you did: I set a filter to show me people running wrapper, or Icons that have been wrapped.

The short version of that is: it becomes too easy to dick over players/gms. If that were the case then every Spider and Sec Guard should just run a filter that says: "I filter out everyone who doesn't have an OS, or has performed a sleaze action." Suddenly the decker is spotted the moment the decking section begins (forgive my ad absudrum).

The Matrix is not the internet. I know it is tempting to say that it is, and that it is an easy way of giving a shorthand to the things you can do in it, and the impact is has had on life in general. But remember, it only just recently became wireless... In addition there are weird things in there that don't make sense. Like Sprites and the whole Adaptive Defense thing...
SR5 CRB(254)
Quote
When a sprite’s code is analyzed, it looks like a kludgy mish-mash of code snippets and junk data that shouldn’t work but does.
(Having an issue finding the quote for the adaptive one...)

The Matrix is a beast in and of itself that no one understands.
SR5 CRB (214)
Quote
The paradox of the Matrix is this: to be an ace hacker, you need to understand it—but no one really understands it.

So here's the thing I am getting to: You can't assume that the matrix is like anything we have today. Or that the actions we are able to do on our internet are the same as those that we can do in the matrix. Yes, players want to come into the game and say: 'Ah, it's the internet run by google.' And unless they are a decker/'mancer, they are essentially right... It's the details inside that make it more or less so...

The Big 10 run the Matrix, and they have Shadowrunners and Industrial Espionage teams attempting to break it in the same way. I think this is pretty self-explanatory, but just in case... they want the matrix to be safe enough that they can advertise it as such, but at the same time allow enough leeway to get what they want--either legally or illegally. That being said, they wouldn't allow something as easy as all objects constantly broadcast their locations. It would sabotage their shadow operations... (just as an example)

I hope this clears up my perspective.

Also: ISP is a great name for a decker.

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #82 on: (17:13:05/08-13-18) »
I can understand thinking of is as setting filters and I like aspects of that explanation as well. However, the issue is when people try to say what you did: I set a filter to show me people running wrapper, or Icons that have been wrapped.

And that is part of the problem.  If, as many people (some even on these forums) have claimed, users of the Matrix can filter out Icons they don't want to view, that makes it implicit that they can filter to only what they want to view.

Let me just give an example.

Lets say some user doesn't want to see / spot / (run) people's socks Icons.  It is assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that they can easily filter those out.
If that is the case, then if you filter out everything you don't want to see, you are left with what you do want to see.
To continue it further, if the user filters out socks, shoes, (let's hope they can do groups like "clothing"), potted plants, etc., eventually all that is left is what they do want to see.  So that user is left viewing only commlinks, Cyberdecks, or bras if that is their thing.
At that point, if the user wants to filter it further, they filter out Cyberdecks that aren't running programs.  (There shouldn't be many, unless they are brand new in a factory.  But as a responsible user they certainly should reduce the work of the system if they can.)  Now they are only seeing Cyberdecks that are running programs.
Next filter?  Remove cyberdecks that aren't running Wrapper.
Then all there is left are Cyberdecks running Wrapper.  Security could get a Radio Shack PCD-500 running an Agent with those filters performing Matrix Perception checks all day...
Anyway, now the character (player or NPC) makes their Matrix Perception test.
Then we get into the fuzziness of how the GM should adjudicate Matrix Perception, but that can be saved for another time.

This is how information systems work.  If you can filter something out, that means you can filter for only one thing.

(forgive my ad absudrum).
Not a problem.  More anecdotal evidence that the Matrix section of the rules could use some real polishing (and I hope it is in Kill Code...  That I am still waiting for...  Frag it...)

That being said, they wouldn't allow something as easy as all objects constantly broadcast their locations. It would sabotage their shadow operations... (just as an example)

If that was meant to be a direct counter point to something I wrote, let me clear something up.  Just because the Matrix has to track the physical location of an Icon does not mean it is broadcast.  It means that the Matrix has to track it, to "know" it, so that when / if someone runs a Trace Icon on it the Matrix can actually report the location.
That, and the Matrix has to know the physical location of the Icon so that your devices can give you the proper overlay in AR / display properly in VR.
If devices / Icons don't have location data, then not only can Trace Icon not work - convergence can't either.


Also: ISP is a great name for a decker.

Thanks.

Marcus

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« Reply #83 on: (17:31:17/08-13-18) »
Afaik Sprites have no physical location but are still subject to convergence.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Xenon

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« Reply #84 on: (18:48:19/08-13-18) »
At that point, if the user wants to filter it further, they filter out Cyberdecks that aren't running programs.
I was with you until this part....

First of all, a Cyberdeck that the owner is using will vanish from the matrix (see one of my previous posts). You can only spot cyberdecks that are unattended (and they will probably not run any software at all). Having said that, you might or might not be able to "mass filter" personas in the vicinity.

But to know if personas in the vicinity are running a program or not doesn't seem to be anything you can "mass filter". To know this you need to manually loop through each persona in the vicinity at random to query them one by one.

To know if icons in the vicinity have an altered appearance or not doesn't seem to be anything you can "mass filter". To know this you need to manually loop through each icon in the vicinity at random to query each individual icon one by one.

This would be a similar procedure as when icons are running silent. You might be able to "mass filter" silent running icons in the vicinity. This is enough to "know" about all the icons, but you may not take one single matrix perception test to spot all of them at once. To spot them you need to manually loop through each silent running icon in the vicinity at random to spot them one by one.


so that when / if someone runs a Trace Icon on it the Matrix can actually report the location.
Or maybe "the matrix" doesn't know where your devices are located. Maybe it is your device that knows where it is (by asking how far away it is from several devices in the vicinity that have a fixed "GPS" location). So when you (or anyone with two marks on your device) ask your device where it is (with the legal Trace Icon Data Processing action), it will respond with an accurate triangulated "GPS" location....


Afaik Sprites have no physical location but are still subject to convergence.

SR5 p. 254 Sprites
Sprites bend the rules of the Matrix just by existing. The Matrix isn’t really sure what to do with a sprite. When a sprite is compiled, its own Overwatch Score starts, even though it hasn’t had a chance to do anything illegal (it isn’t fair to the little guys, but life ain’t fair, chummer). When a demiGOD or a host converges on a sprite, it simply vanishes, even if it has tasks remaining.
....
A sprite’s owner is the technomancer that compiled it, and when you compile a sprite, it has your Resonance signature. If its physical location is tracked, the tracker gets your physical location instead; this also happens when a demiGOD converges on the hapless little sprite.
« Last Edit: (19:05:08/08-13-18) by Xenon »

adzling

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« Reply #85 on: (18:56:50/08-13-18) »
xclnt post Xenon.

can we move this to a more relevant thread chaps?

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #86 on: (19:18:44/08-13-18) »
Or maybe "the matrix" doesn't know where your devices are located. Maybe it is your device that knows where it is (by asking how far away it is from several devices in the vicinity that have a fixed "GPS" location). So when you (or anyone with two marks on your device) ask your device where it is (with the legal Trace Icon Data Processing action), it will respond with an accurate triangulated "GPS" location....

Nope.

I know for a fact that isn't how it works.

How?  Because if that is how it worked, when someone looked at an area through AR, the Icons wouldn't be overlaid in the right physical locations since the user didn't perform Trace Icon actions.

Hence:
That, and the Matrix has to know the physical location of the Icon so that your devices can give you the proper overlay in AR / display properly in VR.


can we move this to a more relevant thread chaps?

I'd happily write about Kill Code.  Oh wait...  Other than that, this discussion was started by me posting what I hoped was in Kill Code.

living

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« Reply #87 on: (19:52:30/08-13-18) »

I'd happily write about Kill Code.  Oh wait...  Other than that, this discussion was started by me posting what I hoped was in Kill Code.

I'd prefere to read the ***** book...

PingGuy

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« Reply #88 on: (13:13:45/08-20-18) »
This is definitely going to be the next book I pick up, and I'm sticking with hardcover for now.  Time to pester the local game store about trying to order it. :)

kainite311

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« Reply #89 on: (15:12:29/08-22-18) »
<<crickets>>

Still no info on pdf or hard copy release?

Sigh...
Kainite
Actually, in most Shadowrun games, they typically have a Lifestyle so they're either Murder Hobos (Street/Squatter Level) or Murder Renters (Low+ level)