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adzling

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« Reply #165 on: <08-31-18/1655:46> »
again, you're missing a basic understanding of the rules in question.

mbw 1 = $40k.
skillsofts can be subscribed to get as many as you need OR you can buy them individually over time.
either way it's a *FAR* cheaper way to get a rating 6 skill than spending karma for it even at the ludicrously low exchange rate of $2k = 1 karma.

that does not require a high priority to get, i think it's priority 2 for @$50k iirc.

also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

adzling

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« Reply #166 on: <08-31-18/1701:13> »
yes there are many ways to break the game/ exploit poorly written rules.

however there is no reason why we can't fix those exploits and still have a great, fun game.

in fact i'd say it would be more fun and a better game without the stupid exploits.

to turn it around, why even have the exploits in the game in the first place, what do they add?

also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

I don't have Kill code yet, and while I don't disagree with what you are saying, there is something to remember as well,

Many tables use Sum to 10 creation. which means that their resources and base stats are usually higher then you are thinking, thus paving the way for more exploits.

Thanks to the many optional rules and optional creation rules and plain old "PC fuckery" things go pear shaped real quick.... And in my experience the more.. "optional" elements used at the start is a strong indicator of just how Borked things can and will get...

Food for thought.

I actually based my initial calculations on sum to 10 (I just couldn't see any benefit lowering your attributes EVEN MORE would give you for this nutty build idea).

But yeah, as said, if people are TRYING to break or exploit the game, then they will, and no one wins. See as I have been repeating.


Also, to Aadzling: Move by wire adds no bonus to your dodge aside from the increased reaction. Intiiative != dodge, even though they use the same attributes

adzling

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« Reply #167 on: <08-31-18/1703:33> »
this is an example of how this new powa can be exploited to break the game.

its very easy to do and not an edge case at all

would you like me to offer another example?

the risks you call out are almost non-existant. do i need to do the math on that for you or can you operate a calculator yourself?

I really donīt get it, either. All of the more crazy stuff with that complex needs a lot of sacrifices as well. If someone really builds his TM around some nutty MBM-based concept build, who gives?

Keep in mind that MBW is one of the most invasive augmentations on the market and that the side effects will also increase with rating. Now on paper alone this "only" means -1 to your social limit per rating point. Narratively speaking, you will look like some dead-eyed spastic marionette. Also, read what a MBW actually does to your body! You really really really  donīt want to mess this shit up. Glitch on the complex Form or fry the system and you are lucky if you donīt die from a Grand Mal. Not to mention that you need to keep an augmentation that has full control over your movements wirelessly active to pull this off! If someone really wants to take that risk, I say let them have the reward.

Marcus

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« Reply #168 on: <08-31-18/1705:34> »
can someone find that reference? ty

This post:

Quote from: Patrick Goodman
Status: Official

Rules Clarification (P. 98, Spending Your Leftover Karma)
Add the following paragraph after the second paragraph.

"You cannot spend Karma to initiate (p. 324) or submerge (p. 257) at character creation."

Thanks ISP. Explains why my search fu failed.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

daidalon

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« Reply #169 on: <08-31-18/1742:33> »
no offense but you're totally wrong.

please go re-read the entry on move by wire in chrome flesh as your example is just not accurate in the slightest.

then come back and edit your post to conform with reality and we will have something to discuss.

mbw does use ratings
mbw does add to your reaction (admittedly limited by +4 cap)
it also adds to your initiative, which is not limited by +4 cap (it's not an attribute)

Something extra to add: ware CANNOT, in any way (as per erratta) boost you past the +4 attribute limit.

Additionally, move by wire does not have a normal rating increase. It has a specially called out levels. Lvl 1 gives + 3 init, lvl 2 gives +6 init +1 init die, lvl 3 gives +9 init + 1 init die. These are with a reaction bonus of +1, +2, and +3 respectively.

Additionally, something to remember. Ware is expensive as balls, and you need, at a minimum, priority C to be a technomancer. And that, should you take move by wire at chargen, you lose all resonance at that tier.


TLDR: Can you probably do some broken shit with this? Almost certainly. But it isn't even REMOTELY as bad as you guys are implying. It only affects a handful of ware that has variable ratings, most of which raises attributes which means it has a hard cap of +4. It doesn't buff implanted smartlinks. It doesn't make your cyberears suddenly able to hold more stuff. It does bugger all for your cyberlimbs. Most importantly, you need to have eaten the insane essence lost to get that ware, which means this should not be considered with anything close to a large dice pool (unless you are dealing with players actively trying to break the game, in which case, congrats: everyone loses in that case! Yay!).

Compare it next to shit like 1 karma quickening just all of the buff spells, and the fact that spotting TMs is now not super hard/it is now really goddamn easy to take out TMs powers, and I think you all are jumping at a ghost that isn't there.

Now the Groveler quality... yeah, that shit needs to go or cost ALOT more. It does more than reageants, and costs next to nothing to make fade just never an issue again. I've already banned that quality full stop.

I have read the post, but you are not reading it yourself. As per its description, it DOES use ratings (and thus would increase), however it has a non-linear increase as called out in it, and thus won't really help you beyond rating 3. It has tiers based on its ratings.

You are also using numbers that are beyond the pale to reach, you realize that, right? ESPECIALLY when accounting for the ton of resonance you will lose doing this.

daidalon

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« Reply #170 on: <08-31-18/1744:03> »
again, you're missing a basic understanding of the rules in question.

mbw 1 = $40k.
skillsofts can be subscribed to get as many as you need OR you can buy them individually over time.
either way it's a *FAR* cheaper way to get a rating 6 skill than spending karma for it even at the ludicrously low exchange rate of $2k = 1 karma.

that does not require a high priority to get, i think it's priority 2 for @$50k iirc.

also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

You literally reiterated what I said, and did not refute a single point I made :/

You need priority D to get your wires and skilljack.

With 0 skillsofts.

You need priority C to get a few skill softs

At no point do ANY of the other problems get better, nor do you get rid of ANY of the other penalties.

daidalon

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« Reply #171 on: <08-31-18/1748:45> »
yes there are many ways to break the game/ exploit poorly written rules.

however there is no reason why we can't fix those exploits and still have a great, fun game.

in fact i'd say it would be more fun and a better game without the stupid exploits.

to turn it around, why even have the exploits in the game in the first place, what do they add?

also, if it matters: Skillsofts are also insanely expensive.

With what you are proposing you could, by dedicating basically everything to this 1 idea and nothing else (resources A, Res B, etc) get yourself a whopping 15 or so rating 6 skills for all of your nuyen!

With shit attributes unless you show up with a bunch of 1s and literally unable to live a normal life (which most GMs will CAN)

That can't be raised, ever

that can't be edged

that can be readily bricked as they need to be wireless on to get this bonus

that you can only run a handful of at a time (see prior argument of your resonance getting nuked by essence loss)

that can't do anything he doesn't have a skill soft for

All while getting a -2 to everything you do, minimum (probably a -4 if you also used it on your skilljack to actually allow you to use those rating 6 skills at all) for the trouble


I could keep going, but there are ALOT of reasons why you don't see endless skillwire builds. Going whole hog on this exacerbates both the positives, AND negatives, of those builds to the point where I don't think a build this narrowly focused on design is useful at all. They can do alot of things, but they can't do any of it well without layering on so much cheese you are clearly trying to break the system.


I'd recommend focusing erratta more towards people NOT trying to actively break the game in any way physically possible. Because, to be frank, 5e, and every other table top game, can be broken if you try hard enough. Thats a battle you can't win.

I don't have Kill code yet, and while I don't disagree with what you are saying, there is something to remember as well,

Many tables use Sum to 10 creation. which means that their resources and base stats are usually higher then you are thinking, thus paving the way for more exploits.

Thanks to the many optional rules and optional creation rules and plain old "PC fuckery" things go pear shaped real quick.... And in my experience the more.. "optional" elements used at the start is a strong indicator of just how Borked things can and will get...

Food for thought.

I actually based my initial calculations on sum to 10 (I just couldn't see any benefit lowering your attributes EVEN MORE would give you for this nutty build idea).

But yeah, as said, if people are TRYING to break or exploit the game, then they will, and no one wins. See as I have been repeating.


Also, to Aadzling: Move by wire adds no bonus to your dodge aside from the increased reaction. Intiiative != dodge, even though they use the same attributes

What you posted is something I don't believe is an exploit, even if we ignore the special rating case of MBW, for one. In order to hit remotely those numbers you need a dice pool of at least 12, and thats AFTER you ate away 3 of your resonance, and assuming a perfect dice roll. It is in the realm of unlikely that wanting to burn the book over it is insane, especially when compared to established and accepted parts of the game that it is attempting to mimic.

You are talking in the realm of an improved reflexes spell, pre-edged, and cranked to nutters. AND even then, it STILL would be inferior to that improved reflexes spell + the magician can just quicken that forever.

^ just putting some things into perspective


daidalon

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« Reply #172 on: <08-31-18/1751:25> »
this is an example of how this new powa can be exploited to break the game.

its very easy to do and not an edge case at all

would you like me to offer another example?

the risks you call out are almost non-existant. do i need to do the math on that for you or can you operate a calculator yourself?

I really donīt get it, either. All of the more crazy stuff with that complex needs a lot of sacrifices as well. If someone really builds his TM around some nutty MBM-based concept build, who gives?

Keep in mind that MBW is one of the most invasive augmentations on the market and that the side effects will also increase with rating. Now on paper alone this "only" means -1 to your social limit per rating point. Narratively speaking, you will look like some dead-eyed spastic marionette. Also, read what a MBW actually does to your body! You really really really  donīt want to mess this shit up. Glitch on the complex Form or fry the system and you are lucky if you donīt die from a Grand Mal. Not to mention that you need to keep an augmentation that has full control over your movements wirelessly active to pull this off! If someone really wants to take that risk, I say let them have the reward.

Perhaps calm down when people do not disagree with you, as 2 of us in here have disagreed, and you have insulted the intelligence of both of us without even addressing any of our points.

Also. please try and condense posts in the future. The forums dont handle quote chains amazingly, especially broken across posts. If we can get this conversation into 1 post after another instead of 3 seperate posts all on the same topic, it would be alot easier for everyone to follow and throw their opinions in on and would reduce the amount of noise.

Finstersang

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« Reply #173 on: <08-31-18/1802:57> »
No offense, but you are barking up the wrong tree here, guys  ::)

The closest thing to "broken" about the Cyberadept is the Interaction with MBW, which needs so much dedication at chargen is so extremely risky that itīs somewhat justified. If you really want to build your whole character around this "Jacked up Skillmonkey" concept and you really donīt mind that this means that you have to run around with a wireless enabled, super-invasive piece of Cyberware that, again controls your movements and will turn you into a spastic vegetable if something goes wrong, then go ahead. Enjoy you 5-6 Initiative Passes per Combat round while laughing histerically. It will probably be over sooner than you think  ;D

There are more important things to talk about than one esoteric build that, if you look closer, doesnīt really do anything except making you extremely fast. Groveler makes Fading a non-issue. We still have no Matrix Teamwork rules. Reckless Hacking is great, but the interaction with the Control Device Action is nuts. These are more urgent IMO.   
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

adzling

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« Reply #174 on: <08-31-18/1808:20> »
+1 reaction / +3 inititiave all day Long.

You would only lose 2 resonance,(which can be recouped in other ways) in return for adding main combatant to your role (+4 reaction, +23 initiative, any weapon skill at 6).

Small price to pay.

What do mean by beyond the pale numbers?
Software at 6(8 with speciality) and resonance of 4  = dice pool of 12. Just what you need to pull this off. Not at all difficult or large pool.


[quote author=daidalon

I have read the post, but you are not reading it yourself. As per its description, it DOES use ratings (and thus would increase), however it has a non-linear increase as called out in it, and thus won't really help you beyond rating 3. It has tiers based on its ratings.

You are also using numbers that are beyond the pale to reach, you realize that, right? ESPECIALLY when accounting for the ton of resonance you will lose doing this.
[/quote]

adzling

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« Reply #175 on: <08-31-18/1813:16> »

It’s super easy to overcome a single -2 sustaining penalty.

Mbw 1 is cheap, heck you can afford it with gear karma alone.

The cost to add skillsofts is far far less than purchasing real skills with karma.

This guy starts off as a Sammy who can hack and just gets more powerful as he progresses far quicker than anyone else on the team. He would add a rating 6 skill every run on average...

[quote author=daidalon

You literally reiterated what I said, and did not refute a single point I made :/

You need priority D to get your wires and skilljack.

With 0 skillsofts.

You need priority C to get a few skill softs

At no point do ANY of the other problems get better, nor do you get rid of ANY of the other penalties.
[/quote]

adzling

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« Reply #176 on: <08-31-18/1817:43> »
A threading dice pool of 12 = software 6 (overkill +2) and resonance 4.

That’s a standard starting dice pool everyone would should know how to build.

Dude if you can’t get that much right I don’t know what your adding to this convo.

[quote author=daidalon

What you posted is something I don't believe is an exploit, even if we ignore the special rating case of MBW, for one. In order to hit remotely those numbers you need a dice pool of at least 12, and thats AFTER you ate away 3 of your resonance, and assuming a perfect dice roll. It is in the realm of unlikely that wanting to burn the book over it is insane, especially when compared to established and accepted parts of the game that it is attempting to mimic.

You are talking in the realm of an improved reflexes spell, pre-edged, and cranked to nutters. AND even then, it STILL would be inferior to that improved reflexes spell + the magician can just quicken that forever.

^ just putting some things into perspective
[/quote]

adzling

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« Reply #177 on: <08-31-18/1820:00> »
Good points re bigger fish to fry.

However I’m sure there’s other ware you can pull this stunt with.

No offense, but you are barking up the wrong tree here, guys  ::)

The closest thing to "broken" about the Cyberadept is the Interaction with MBW, which needs so much dedication at chargen is so extremely risky that itīs somewhat justified. If you really want to build your whole character around this "Jacked up Skillmonkey" concept and you really donīt mind that this means that you have to run around with a wireless enabled, super-invasive piece of Cyberware that, again controls your movements and will turn you into a spastic vegetable if something goes wrong, then go ahead. Enjoy you 5-6 Initiative Passes per Combat round while laughing histerically. It will probably be over sooner than you think  ;D

There are more important things to talk about than one esoteric build that, if you look closer, doesnīt really do anything except making you extremely fast. Groveler makes Fading a non-issue. We still have no Matrix Teamwork rules. Reckless Hacking is great, but the interaction with the Control Device Action is nuts. These are more urgent IMO.

Finstersang

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« Reply #178 on: <08-31-18/1854:18> »
I actually checked the Ware in the Core Rules today and made a list of possible Overdrive targets. Itīs not that long, and itīs mostly quite reasonable. 

The juciest bits after Control Rig and MBW (see below) are Wired Reflexes, Muscle Replacements and Reaction Enhancers. However, these are subject to the Attribute Enhancement Limit. If you are a cheeselord, you can install wired reflexes and reaction enhancers and convince your GM to let you abuse their wireless bonus to circumvent this Limitation. If you survive the Phonebooking :P   

Sense Enhancements are next in line. You can enter a kind of hyperperceptive state with this. However, thatīs pretty flavourfull IMO

Then thereīs a lot of perception, stealth and movement gizmos: Ultrasound, Sonar, Hydraulik Jacks, Voice Modulation, Retinal Duplication... Might be interesting but I donīt see anything that would get too ridiculous.

Thereīs a small group of rated ware which you obviously canīt really overdrive for simple common sense reasons: Air tanks wonīt magically increase their volume, same for Biowaste storage (just in case you wanted to literally be full of shit :P). I also wouldnīt allow it for Dermal Platingl, because common sense.

Smartskin however ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJvOxFhVNbQ. Yeah, Iīd allow it  8)

The most "broken" things IMO are MBW (again, I think itīs justified for the risk) and Control Rig. TBH, an overdriven Control Rig is really insane, without the huge risk and without looking like a spastic freak for the entire run. Oh, and Hardwires. The description suggests that these are still just running Autosofts and thus canīt benefit from a rating higher than 6, but itīs not clearly stated.
« Last Edit: <08-31-18/1905:28> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #179 on: <08-31-18/1914:21> »
There are cyberlimbs as well.  Well, I'm assuming you could Overdrive the Enhancements.