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Kill Code

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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #135 on: <08-30-18/1916:56> »
meantime if anyone has things that seem OP, borked or nonsensical post them here so we can queue them up for errata.

I started a thread in the Errata forum, so if you want stuff reported here, that thread should be axed before anyone posts to it.

I'll crosspost here, in case that is what happens.

  • Denial of Service Matrix Action, page 37 states in the stat block header it is a Cybercombat + Logic [Attack] v. Willpower + Firewall test, and then in the description says to "Make a Computer + Intuition [Data processing] Test opposed by Willpower + Firewall," test
  • The Machinists Daemon on page 90 states that a Techno's Living Persona acts as a RCC (except for the ability to make and join a WAN).  Is that supposed to be a PAN?  If not, then does it bypass the need for the 8 point One with the Matrix quality?  The only benefit you can get from a RCC without being a part of a PAN is the Noise Reduction.

Finstersang

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« Reply #136 on: <08-30-18/1939:00> »
The errata team did not have access to the entire book, only a single section.
A single author has provided us with insight in some publications before the final product was submitted a few times in the past but we have never seen an entire product before.
We don’t do play testing I’m afraid.

That confirms my suspicion on where most of the shortcomings in 5th Edition comes from. Itīs like those "Group Projects" in College where the group members gets assigned to one part of the topic each, never talk to each other for 6 six week and the day before presentation, everything is lumped together into one big powerpoint with minimal oversight. As a results, content turns out to be redundant and/or contradictive (just think about the two sets of Modding rules in Rigger 5!) or important content is omitted because everyone who might have felt responsible thought someone else will take care of it.

Donīt get me wrong: Kill Code is a lot better than I expected, I even dare to say itīs kinda... good. Somewhat. But there are still some very annoying shortcomings, which, as it seems, mostly stems from a lack of oversight and the late involvement (or non-involvment) of Proofreading, Errata, Playtesting and Consistency checks. Just a few examples from the first binge-read-through:

  • Can I finally use teamwork on a Matrix test and if yes, how does it work? You might now say: "Well thereīs the new Teamplayer  quality. Technomancers (!) can use it to Perform Brute Force and Hack on the Fly as a teamwork test now. Canīt be used with Sprites (!) and Agents, though." Ahead from being a huge slap in the face of fans of Agents and the "Petnomancer" playstyle (Which I wonīt miss, since it was always just an improvised means to cure the shortcomings of TM by cheesing and rules-tinkering), this doesnīt explain anything; It merely suggests that you canīt use Teamwork for these two specific test. What about all the other Tests? Can I use teamwork to Edit a File or Trace a Call? If yes, do the Helpers need Marks? If yes, can they take the modifier for reckless Hacking instead? Who takes the Fall, who gets OS?
  • Speaking of Teamplayer: Are you sure all of the TM-only Qualities in Kill Code are supposed to be TM-exclusive?
  • Speaking of Reckless Hacking: Really nice addition, I give you that! Someone payed attention to the crowd! But then you recognize some problems: What about legal actions? Can anyone use Edit File? on anyoneīs data now, just with a Modifier? OK, thereīs still File Protection that only hackers can crack, and why not let the non-Hackers have some limited fun? Same for Trace Icon: Gaining that one revenge-Mark from a Rigger for a failed Sleaze action might acutally hurt now! But Control Device?! You realize that this means that I can fire someoneīs gun at any time, with nothing more than an unmodified Commlink? Probably wonīt hit the desired target because of the -10 Modifier, but Iīve still fired a fracking gun without hacking! I think you may need to have a look into this.  ;D
  • Speaking of Sprite abuse: Diagnostics clarification, anyone?
  • Whatīs the point of hacking into an Industry Host (p. 44) if I donīt get a direct connection to the devices slaved to it? How are the devices "within" the host anyway, when devices canīt enter a host? (I have a suspicion that thereīs a common answer for both questions, but Iīd like to know what you think  8))
« Last Edit: <08-30-18/1944:39> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

kainite311

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« Reply #137 on: <08-30-18/2131:17> »

  • Can I finally use teamwork on a Matrix test and if yes, how does it work? You might now say: "Well thereīs the new Teamplayer  quality. Technomancers (!) can use it to Perform Brute Force and Hack on the Fly as a teamwork test now. Canīt be used with Sprites (!) and Agents, though." Ahead from being a huge slap in the face of fans of Agents and the "Petnomancer" playstyle (Which I wonīt miss, since it was always just an improvised means to cure the shortcomings of TM by cheesing and rules-tinkering), this doesnīt explain anything; It merely suggests that you canīt use Teamwork for these two specific test. What about all the other Tests? Can I use teamwork to Edit a File or Trace a Call? If yes, do the Helpers need Marks? If yes, can they take the modifier for reckless Hacking instead? Who takes the Fall, who gets OS?

I thought that at first, but upon re-reading it I noticed that ALL parties get a mark(s) instead of just the leader per normal teamwork rules. So I think that is what they meant as "teamwork tests" in this particular regard vs normal teamwork tests. Poor wording/editing IMHO *if* that was the intention...
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Beta

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« Reply #138 on: <08-30-18/2228:42> »
No Jack Point page :-(  If nothing else I like to pick up the date off of those, but for some reason I also simply like that tradition.
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Lorebane24

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« Reply #139 on: <08-30-18/2242:29> »
I just picked it up and noticed the same thing.   :'(
The power of the Tri-Horse!

Marcus

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« Reply #140 on: <08-30-18/2350:06> »
marcus im not sure what you're referring to?

FYI I had some input/ review of some of the new matrix actions that do not require marks.
that's about it.
everything else is news to me.

meantime if anyone has things that seem OP, borked or nonsensical post them here so we can queue them up for errata.

That explains it, I just feel like half the new TM stuff needs massive and immediate errata.  I mean i thought we all had learned the lesson of 4th and don't allows things that will let TM a have powers that boost skills? But of course right away we get something will let you overclock a skillwire.   I just don't understand how we learned these lessons and yet still this crap gets written in.
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Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #141 on: <08-30-18/2352:27> »
(Crossposting in case the Errata thread gets axed.)

  • The Optional Rule:  Surplus and Refurbished PI-Tac Units side bar lists several extended tests without the time each test takes.

No Jack Point page :-(  If nothing else I like to pick up the date off of those, but for some reason I also simply like that tradition.

I can't help with the lack of the tradition.  The date I can help with. In the second column of page 15, Jolene Price mentions it is 2080.  For what that is worth.

adzling

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« Reply #142 on: <08-30-18/2359:29> »
sorry drop your potential errata in the errata thread

i didn't know where i was :-9

Finstersang

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« Reply #143 on: <08-31-18/0017:30> »

  • Can I finally use teamwork on a Matrix test and if yes, how does it work? You might now say: "Well thereīs the new Teamplayer  quality. Technomancers (!) can use it to Perform Brute Force and Hack on the Fly as a teamwork test now. Canīt be used with Sprites (!) and Agents, though." Ahead from being a huge slap in the face of fans of Agents and the "Petnomancer" playstyle (Which I wonīt miss, since it was always just an improvised means to cure the shortcomings of TM by cheesing and rules-tinkering), this doesnīt explain anything; It merely suggests that you canīt use Teamwork for these two specific test. What about all the other Tests? Can I use teamwork to Edit a File or Trace a Call? If yes, do the Helpers need Marks? If yes, can they take the modifier for reckless Hacking instead? Who takes the Fall, who gets OS?

I thought that at first, but upon re-reading it I noticed that ALL parties get a mark(s) instead of just the leader per normal teamwork rules. So I think that is what they meant as "teamwork tests" in this particular regard vs normal teamwork tests. Poor wording/editing IMHO *if* that was the intention...

You might be right: Thatīs yet another way to interpret this  ::)

Anyways, because of the nature of Matrix actions this question cannot be settled by vague implications or by a laconic "Yes you can". Admittingly: "No you canīt" would settle it. But that would be a very shitty solution.
« Last Edit: <08-31-18/0027:14> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Finstersang

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« Reply #144 on: <08-31-18/0034:30> »
marcus im not sure what you're referring to?

FYI I had some input/ review of some of the new matrix actions that do not require marks.
that's about it.
everything else is news to me.

meantime if anyone has things that seem OP, borked or nonsensical post them here so we can queue them up for errata.

That explains it, I just feel like half the new TM stuff needs massive and immediate errata.  I mean i thought we all had learned the lesson of 4th and don't allows things that will let TM a have powers that boost skills? But of course right away we get something will let you overclock a skillwire.   I just don't understand how we learned these lessons and yet still this crap gets written in.

I donīt get why are you so pissed by that? Boosting Skillwires is a neat, unique trick, with limited effects since Skillsofts are capped at a rating of 6. To what "lesson from 4th" do you refer here?  ???
« Last Edit: <08-31-18/0041:00> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

Marcus

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« Reply #145 on: <08-31-18/0621:32> »
I donīt get why are you so pissed by that? Boosting Skillwires is a neat, unique trick, with limited effects since Skillsofts are capped at a rating of 6. To what "lesson from 4th" do you refer here?  ???

The reason TM got the epic nerf bat at the end 4th, was that they got amazingly broken, one of those build that stands out as broken, was the living skill wire build. TM Could thread a skill, and believe me could really, really push that pool back in 4th. The end result being TM had over cap skill in everything. Now it took a good pile of karma to do it. But it was stand out example of broken.

Next the wording of the power isn't clear. If you look in the core there is not such thing as a level 4 wired reflex ether. But that power example uses it. Which means the power allows you to break caps. Why not skill wire 10? Sure it's totally possible the intention was exactly as you said above, but believe me there is portion of the SR community which is already building around the solving the matrix damage problem and running around with a 10+ skill in everything.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #146 on: <08-31-18/0712:41> »
So youīre afraid that TM`s might have been buffed so hard that they will inevitably nerfed down to their former sorry state?
I kinda get where you are coming from, but there are Archetypes far more due for a whacking with the nerf stick (thus my Signature   ::)) Also, keep in mind that SR is not a competitive game. While there is some kind of "Meta" in the form of forum talks about "Optimal Builds", "Karma Traps" etc., the main incentive on actual tables is to build a fun and fluffy character. And building a TM as a kind of paranormal transhuman Streetsam/Hacker hybrid is a pretty fun new concept IMO.
 
Regarding Overclocking: The Rating of the Wires in in the example is raised to 4, which is probably a way of telling us: "Yes, you can get higher than the rating of bought ware can go". However, thereīs nothing that suggests that this Form (and the similar Power of greater Machine Sprites) breaks other limitations like the augmented Attribute Maximum of +4 and the maximum of 5 Initiative dice. You could probably drive the the rating further up, but this would be pointless since you already hit the maximum. As far as I can tell, the "cheesiest" things you can do here is using it on Perception Enhancements and Scanners (I CAN SEE EVERYTHING!!!), Dermal Plating (or Smartskin, if your GM uses Common Sense. Nanomachines, Son) and other types of "gimicky" ware where you donīt have to care about other limitations.
« Last Edit: <08-31-18/0714:45> by Finstersang »
"Firing Line adds a ton of Perks that modify Attack and Defense ratings"

"Cool, does this mean that the whole AR/DR comparison has a bigger impact now?"

"Haha No :D"

HP15BS

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« Reply #147 on: <08-31-18/0834:47> »
I don't think I would consider gear rating to be subject to the +4 Attribute boost limit. A DR is not the same as an Attribute (unless there's something in Kill Code that states it's treated that way).

Firewall, etc are considered Matrix Attributes (and thus subject to the standard boost limit of whichever's lower, +4, or baseX2) but afaik, those are the only "Attributes" that any devices have.

That said, applying the same boost limit here would be a logical house rule.
« Last Edit: <08-31-18/0904:01> by HP15BS »
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Marcus

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« Reply #148 on: <08-31-18/0934:26> »
As you can see from the post above the sorts of arguments happen a lot. But even if people did accept the+4 which, as you can see will disagree with, every skill at 10 will be considered game breaking by most any GM.
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daidalon

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« Reply #149 on: <08-31-18/1009:30> »
I usually just haunt the forums, but I think this MAJOR distinction between 4e and 5e can't be forgotten

In 4e, biowire was insane because TMs could thread skillsofts at, really, whatever rating they wanted. Since biowire had little to no limitations, this a rules-lawyer could be allowed some frankly stupid builds that every sane/experienced GM canned instantly.

That's not a a problem with this as you CANNOT emulate skillsofts in any way as a TM. Its impossible, barring some VERY loose interpretations of the [program] echo, and, even then, you could NEVER change anything about it. Purchased skillsofts have a hard rating limit of 6.

This means that, while overclocking DOES let you run alot MORE skillsofts, potentially even up to the max rating of 6 with a rating 6 skilljack and enough nuyen spent on skillsofts to sink a ship, it CANNOT let you exceed the max skillsoft cap of 6 as those are not a part of the cyberware.

There is no getting around this limitation, so you do not need to worry about the old 4e nonsense. This, at best, saves them some essence when it comes to skillwire builds in exchange for a sustaining penalty or 2 to all actions. Can be nice, but far from gamebreaking.