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Glitches, odds and inexistence of critical glitches

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« Reply #30 on: (14:47:50/02-04-18) »
One more thing you didn't consider yet is Extended Tests.

Even a dicepool of 12 or 15 erodes really quickly when you face a target number high enough... and when you're down to 5 dice or 3 dice, then you're really thinking "I need two more hits... just two. But if I crit glitch now, it's going to be REALLY bad. Should I go on?"

luizborges

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« Reply #31 on: (15:04:46/02-04-18) »
@Sphinx, your answer is one of the reasons I'm here discussing that. A glitch like a harmless blunder IS fun. It adds variety to perfect soldiers. You yourself said that you save the best ideas for players, but if the only ones who glitches are hapless incompetent NPCs, then what is the point? Here I'm talking about opinions I think the glitch idea is fantastic, but as it is, it is ineffective because the players rarely glitch...

Most people here seem to think that a glitch is something terrible or something bad, but this is up to the GM and this is a reflection of what he wants for his players. I would use glitches to introduce new elements to a scene, things that change a bit a static situation. I would like to see glitches every other scene, not every other session and done by NPCs..

This was all opinion. Now back to the analysis.
This is what the book says about extended tests. A glitch doesn't stop an enhancement extended test, but a critical glitch does. But then again, this is one point of edge away of being fixed. With the current rules, a critical gltich is a risk at 3 dice, above that it is almost negligible. But lets us consider 5 dice as the last safe pool. If you start with a pool of 10 dice you will throw 45 dice to reach the safe pool. This is 45 dice almost guaranteed to not critically fail. If you start with a 15 dice pool you will throw 110 dice. With an average success every 3 rolls, that is 15 success for the 10 dice pool and 36 successes for the 15 dice pool... When did you need more than that???
Also, edge is your friend and it can be used more than once here since those are separate tests...
« Last Edit: (15:08:28/02-04-18) by luizborges »

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« Reply #32 on: (16:44:26/02-04-18) »
You know what, it's your game, if you want to change the glitch rules there, do it.

People here told you more than once now that it's not needed and not intended to be more common. You don't believe it, fine. Go ahead, make it more common.

I also play VtM where Botches happen way more often, and let me tell you they're no fun.

luizborges

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« Reply #33 on: (17:35:36/02-04-18) »
Quatar, people told me their opinion, and I also have mine, but AGAIN, the case in point is the interpretation of the Rules As Written, just that. And the RAW and the way many people here see it is VERY different.

Marcus

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« Reply #34 on: (21:29:50/02-04-18) »
I wouldn't get to caught up in the worst possible interpretations of what folks are saying, the wording on page 45 of the core is very clear "When you
glitch, something bad happens."  most of the folks on here have a both a very good idea of RAW, and the Rules in practice. Yes there will be consequences for Glitches and Critical Glitches, and yes the player probably won't like them, but that's part of the fun of it. Sometime the dice just let you down. It's how you develop "Character" lol. 

The other counter point to this, is we have no rules of critical success ether, you can achieve a huge pile of success but there isn't some kind of magical critical success threshold, so it's really only fair the glitches aren't a huge deal ether.

DigitalZombie

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« Reply #35 on: (03:04:12/02-05-18) »
I like how star wars handles this. With various dices.

You could use colored dice.
Say everytime some rolls a dice pool 3 of those dice are red.
Glitches/critical glitches are only calculated on behalf of those 3 dice. As a bonus they always have the 6-again rule.
If the pool is less than 3, then you would only be rolling 2 or 1 as appropriate.

You should also make a short list of possible glitches, and then pick the most fitting/fun whenever a glitch/ critical glitch occurs.


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« Reply #36 on: (07:13:21/02-05-18) »
Quatar, people told me their opinion, and I also have mine, but AGAIN, the case in point is the interpretation of the Rules As Written, just that. And the RAW and the way many people here see it is VERY different.
No, the Rules As Written say you glitch when more than half your dice show a 1. Critical glitch is when you glitch and get no success. The people here know that and say "That's fine, that's how it should be"

What you are hung up on is the FLUFF of the description of what glitches are, and try to shape that into "it should be more often". Fluff and crunch in SR5 don't always mesh up too well. Sometimes its better to ignore one for the other. In this case people tell you to ignore the fluff part.

DigitalZombie

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« Reply #37 on: (11:11:10/02-05-18) »
Im pretty sure he knows RAW. But believes the game would improve if glitches were more common.

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #38 on: (12:37:57/02-05-18) »
I'm still curious what you hope to get from increasing the frequency of glitches. Do you think your players will be grateful? Do you think it will make the game more fun?

« Reply #39 on: (17:00:39/02-05-18) »
Near as I could tell it seems that the opinion expressed was that glitches are so improbable to occur that the rule is pointless without modification.

Of course there's a whole thread's worth of opinions on that opinion.

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #40 on: (17:03:21/02-05-18) »
Perhaps you are right, but if so an alternate and much easier solution would be removing glitches from the game, which OP clearly does not want to do. Ergo, he must believe they add something to the game and that making them more common will make the game better. I would like to know what and why. Hell, maybe he's thought of something we haven't.

luizborges

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« Reply #41 on: (17:33:16/02-05-18) »
To those that care, this is my modified rules for glitches.
I'm still developing a sheet showing all it's probabilities (and comparing to RAW.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GGvWuypiWt3GDB4LYRtdQvQTvdPbvKjrGI2R1FtGVRw/edit?usp=drivesdk

With those glitch mechanics critical glitches are still rare above 4-5 dice, but they do happen "once in a blue moon".
Regular glitches happen around 2-5% of the rolls above 4-5 dice.
Both (glitches and critical glitches) follow nice smooth curves (again to be added later), have no odd/even dice pool problems and no special cases whatsoever.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #42 on: (23:41:30/02-05-18) »
I haven't analyzed the statistics, but based on the way you have those rules set up, I don't think you've made a significant change to the probability that Glitches will occur. And because of the excess ones causing hits to be cancelled, it seems like it would have the effect of causing glitches to be inherently worse and (also) more likely to be critical glitches.

Like I said, I haven't analyzed the statistics in-depth, and I don't plan to. But let me walk through a couple scenarios with this proposed system and compare it side-by-side with the core rules:

Scenario A (Original Glitch): Dice Pool of 13. Result: 7 1's, 3 hits.
Now, this fairly unlikely roll in the Core rules would be considered a glitch with 3 hits, which is a reasonably good success under most circumstances. If we were to apply your new rule, this (already) unlikely roll would have only a 1 in 6 chance of being a glitch, which technically reduces the chances of a glitch. If the "glitch" die doesn't roll a 1, then you're golden and all those 1's don't matter. Now, on the off-chance that you do roll that one on the glitch die, the results actually become rather dire. There are now 8 1's showing, which is five more than the number of hits. With your Hit cancellation, this means that not only did the rule make this a glitch, but now you only have 1 hit, downgrading that to barely a success at all. And if even 1 die had been different (1 less hit, or 1 more 1), the odds are significant that it would actually be a critical glitch instead.

Scenario B (Near Glitch): Dice Pool of 13. Result: 6 1's, 4 hits.
I see this come up a lot in my games, people roll just one or two 1s shy of glitch on their rolls and give that big sigh of relief, thankful that they didn't end up glitching. With your suggested rules, again, this result has a 1 in 6 chance of being a glitch. And again, if it does become a glitch, it means that the success is reduced.

Scenario C (Plain Failure): Dice Pool of 13. Result: 2 1's, 0 hits.
In the Core Rules, this result would be unfortunate, but nothing to write home about, there isn't nearly enough 1's to be a glitch (we need 7+, so even max Gremlins wouldn't do it), but there just aren't any hits so it's a fail. With these new rules, Again, there's a 1 in 6 chance of it becoming a glitch, and even more so, it would be a Critical Glitch! Even if there was a single hit, the new rules would ruin that simple poor roll into a Critical Failure.


Honestly, I like the idea of there being that fudge die to have a chance of pushing those near-glitches into glitches, that can be fun. But that, in addition to the hit cancellations just seems to be overly punishing. It won't affect good rolls, but it will make mediocre rolls worse, and poor rolls flat-out bad. And it definitely increases the percentage of glitches that are going to be critical glitches, even if they would have formerly succeeded...

Marcus

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« Reply #43 on: (00:51:25/02-06-18) »
To those that care, this is my modified rules for glitches.
I'm still developing a sheet showing all it's probabilities (and comparing to RAW.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GGvWuypiWt3GDB4LYRtdQvQTvdPbvKjrGI2R1FtGVRw/edit?usp=drivesdk

With those glitch mechanics critical glitches are still rare above 4-5 dice, but they do happen "once in a blue moon".
Regular glitches happen around 2-5% of the rolls above 4-5 dice.
Both (glitches and critical glitches) follow nice smooth curves (again to be added later), have no odd/even dice pool problems and no special cases whatsoever.

This is basically old school D6 star wars, but without the upside. If you're gonna use such a thing you should add a bonus effect to the glitch die so that it can also assist and not just screw you.


luizborges

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« Reply #44 on: (09:52:34/02-06-18) »
Those are the odds for those that care: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jwn8YAhCc39QDQ9mjxEBHVlLnb0APk-pi2UXPtXdM1U/edit?usp=sharing
It is in portuguese, but easily understandable:
Falha Critical = Critical Glitch
Falha = Glitch
Falha Normal = Regular Glitch
Falha Normal com N sucessos restantes = Glitch with N hits remaining

I also added a comparison to the core RAW method.

@Kiirnodel, since you said you don't plan on looking on the statistics I won't bother explaining why you are wrong. Let me just say that you can't compare specific scenarios because the combinations are different in each mechanic.
With 13 dice you have 4,15% total chance of glitching, those 0,75% of critical glitching and 1,5% of glitching AND still having 3+ hits remaining. So the odds of not having 3 success due to a glitch is 2,65%.

@Marcus, didn't know Star Wars. Nice coincidence. I based a lot of it on the Glitch Die from Shadowrun Anarchy. I could add a mechanic to have an upside, but I honestly don't see a reason since this can already be done by counting net hits (even more if you use Push your Limit). Adding other mechanic would make it way too common (around 7% of the rolls would feature a "upside").

The amount of Glitches is greatly increased compared to the RAW mechanic, but still in an acceptable rate (based on input from the RPG community in Brazil). Considering the description of what Glitches should be (a minor inconvenience, but something that add to the scene) they would happen between once per 20-30 rolls in the 11-17 range dicepool, once per 15-20 rolls in the 4-10 range and once per 30-40 rolls in the 18-25 range. Critics are much rarer, being below 1/100 with a dicepool of 12.
« Last Edit: (11:18:43/02-06-18) by luizborges »