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Glitches, odds and inexistence of critical glitches

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luizborges

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« on: (20:05:07/02-03-18) »
I'm new to SR5 although I knew and played it on second edition.
I noticed quite quickly the the glitches mechanic has strange odds. It oscillates according to the pool size (meaning it jumps up and down) and decays into nothing really quickly (any medium sized dicepool has almost 0 chance of getting a glitch).
Critical glitches are even worse. They almost never happen on really low pools (4-6 dice) and are non-existent 10 dice and above.
According to the glitches descriptions on the core book, and the edge mechanic of negating glitches, I feel they should happen more often. I'm not talking about critical glitches, just the regular ones.although the critical ones could happen once in a while too.

How do you usually handle that? Is there a common house rule to address that?

I started to work on an alternative glitch system with minimal impact to the way tests are done and that demands even lower effort than counting half the pool size. I just need to lock on a nice value for the odds of it happening and would like to know what you think about it.

How do you view glitches and how often should they happen (regular and critical). Also, what do you think about the exploit result from Anarchy glitch die.

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #1 on: (20:43:30/02-03-18) »
Glitches aren't meant to come up often. When was the last time you played a roleplaying game and was like "man, I just haven't rolled badly enough tonight." Besides, Shadowrun is already a very lethal game, PCs don't need yet more to contend with.

PiXeL01

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« Reply #2 on: (21:01:42/02-03-18) »
Isnít it a good reflection of the real world? The more experienced, gifted and skilled a person is the less likely that person will be making mistakes even under stress or when fatigued. Equipment serves to help and minimize the margins of error as well so thatís pretty accurate too in my humble opinion.

Other games that rely on a single dice doesnít really reflect this and it becomes more of a game of luck, so basically Iím fine with the mechanic in SR5 as they are. You still need half your pool to glitch and I see that often enough even with massive pool characters.

luizborges

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« Reply #3 on: (21:39:53/02-03-18) »
Maybe I'm misreading something, but Glitchs are not failures, they are unforeseem circunstances or small problems with your action, you are still successful (unless it is a critical glitch). Based on most examples from the book, a glitch is something like a -2 modifier to your next test, or something like that. So it is not anything major. It is definitly nothing life threatning, or game changing. Now, a critical glitch is supposed to be life threating (but still capable of being dealt with).

Also, Edge can be used to downgrade a critical glitch to a regular glitch or to negate a glitch, so again, a glitch is easily avoidable.

Now on statement that they happen enough with massive pools, I find that quite impossible, since a glitch has less than 1% chance of happening with a pool of 6 dice (with 7 it bumps to 1.7% and then drops again to 0.46% with 8 dice), and less than 0.1% by 14 size pool, this is effectively never.
Critical glitches are even worse, you have 2.8% with 2 dice and around 5% odds with 3 dice, but then it drops to 1% and by 6 dice it is below 0.5%, by 10 dice it is below 0.1%.

So, with a dicepool of 6 dice, you have 1 chance in 100 of having a glitch, and 1 chance in 200 of having a critical glitch, any pool size above goes even lower much more quickly. With a pool of 12 (nothing extraordinary, not even for new characters) you have about 1 glitch every 800 tests, and 1 critical in 6.000 (SIX THOUSANDS) tests!!!

Also, I still think that the chance of glitches should diminish with how high are your pool size, but it shouldn't disapear neither they should be so rare that you never even remember them, after all you have Edge to deal with them if you need (and the book says so right up front).

Even if you are an expert marskman, something wrong might still happen. A change in the wind, a shout in the distance, or something else that doesn't fail your shot, but make it not happen as you would like. And if this something wrong DOES happen you are an expert and probably quite capable to deal with that easily. This is how I understand glitches...
« Last Edit: (22:07:46/02-03-18) by luizborges »

« Reply #4 on: (22:33:11/02-03-18) »
Well the Gremlins quality makes glitches much more likely.  Good for hilarity at the table since a glitch can still be a success....

Reaver

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« Reply #5 on: (01:07:55/02-04-18) »
You have a 1 in 6 chance of rolling a "glitch" per die.
You have a 2 in 6 chance of rolling a "Success" per die.



At the lowest form, that's about as balanced as you can make it.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #6 on: (01:15:25/02-04-18) »
1) Why are you wanting glitches to happen? They are not replacements for good story telling.

2) Yes, players are unlikely to glitch often on what they are good at. That is by design. Rolling bad isn't fun. Glitches happen more often when people roll for things they are not great at.

Finstersang

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« Reply #7 on: (05:24:25/02-04-18) »
The only issue is the fact that glitches turn up more often in even dicepools, which has a significant impact on "desperate rolls" witch low dicepools. At the most extreme, you have a 1/6 Chance to glitch with one die, but almost 1/3 to glitch with two dice.

But at least we got fearies n' shit... *cough*

luizborges

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« Reply #8 on: (05:46:23/02-04-18) »
People, not meaning to be disrespectful, but your odds are way off. With ONE dice you indeed have 1/6 odds to glitch, but with 2 it already goes to 2.8%. Remember that to glitch you need MORE THAN HALF of your pool, so both dice need to be 1s with  a 2 dicepool.

Also, I don't mean to use glitches as crutch, I mean for that to happen as described in the book. As they are described in the examples they should happen with some frequency (you even have means to negate the glitch) because they are minor things, take a look in the book and check it for yourself.

Glitches are meant to be rare on things they are good, but not to disapear completely someone with 3 in a skill (competent) and 3 in the relevant attribute, by description "struggle with complex operations and tricks", but as it is, they glitch once every 200 tests, it doesn't feel like a struggle. A starting character can easily have 12 size dicepool for what they are good at and this is garanteed to never glitch.

So why have glitches in a system if they never happen? Either house rule them out (and stop worrying about 1s) or make they happen when they really should. I really think the devs "glitched" the glitch system. Maybe they didn't check the odds correctly or something like that, but as it is, the odds are a mess and I hardly doubt anyone would like those odd curves on purpose...

PiXeL01

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« Reply #9 on: (05:54:19/02-04-18) »
Because knowing thereís a slight chance of hilarious results adds excitement especially when you roll poorly?

luizborges

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« Reply #10 on: (05:59:44/02-04-18) »
But this is my point, there is no chance for that happening. Please recall in your memory how many glitches you had in your last games, using the rules as written: "more ones than half your pool" (2 ones with 2 and 3 pools, 3 ones with 4 and 5 pools, 4 ones with 6 and 7 pools and so on).

legionof1

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« Reply #11 on: (06:42:32/02-04-18) »
3 times in my last 12 sessions. It not statistically likely but it happens more often then you would think once you have a whole room of folks rolling. Each character might go months without a glitch but the tables as a whole do it often nuff to matter. 

PiXeL01

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Quatar

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« Reply #13 on: (06:54:07/02-04-18) »
You bring up dicepools of 12 a lot. That means, the person likely has 6 skills in it, which according to the list is "Professional" level. Aka he does it all the time. And he needs 6 in an attribute which is the maximum of human potential, before you throw in stuff like magic or cyberware.

So you really expect someone like that to screw up all the time?

Glitches are meant for those situations when you don't have a lot of dice to start with and then get saddled with a -4 penalty on top. Do you really risk rolling those 2 dice now?

As others mentioned rolling glitches or failing on the things your character is good at is not fun, if it happens to often. It happens once every now and then, there's still that "Oh this is an important roll, I hope I don't glitch" there, and when it happens it sucks, but at least you don't dread rolls because you fear glitching.

luizborges

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« Reply #14 on: (07:15:31/02-04-18) »
Quatar, I don't expect a 12 pool to glitch all time, I'm just telling that as it is is, it glitches NEVER. And 12 is quite average for shadowrunners.
Now you mention a 2 dice pool, this had 1/36 odds to glitch, and you still have Edge to just negate that, or simple to pre edge and basically garantee you won't fail.  Also, 2 is a really low dice pool, it is basically as low as you can get, so  the chance a glitches and botches should be a bit higher for those. And on another matter, how often do you throw a 2 dice pool in your games?

3 glitches in 12 sessions, how is that relevant for your games? Do you really worry about glitches? Because with that record and considering 4-5 players you are looking a 1 glitch per player every 20-30 sessions...

I started this post because I researched a bit, run some probabilities and made a few tests using a dice roller to have a "practical" onlook on those odds. With a dice pool of 10 I got 2 regular glitches in 500 tests (no critical) and with a pool of 12 o got ONE glitch in 1000 tests (again no critical):

https://imgur.com/gallery/yFGkB
« Last Edit: (07:40:08/02-04-18) by luizborges »