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But what about the pointy-ears?

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Rosa

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« Reply #15 on: (22:02:39/01-22-18) »
No I didn't like the strong conformist angle,  also I found the world spanning dwarven social network slightly over the top,  a little overdone as it were. Regarding the anti elven bias I spoke about,  what I mean is not that I have a problem with elves being regarded the way they are by others in setting, it's different from a lot of other games and I'm fine with that.  I do take exception with the extreme oversimplification of the racial write-up we were presented with in Run faster and I do have a problem with the fact that a little too often the IE's are painted as more or less incompetent with the exception of Harlequin in comparison with dragons for example.

I have no problem with people interpretating these things as they want in their games but I think the official books could do with a little more variety once in a while. Its a bit funny how many games including SR always goes "Well humans are versatile,  that's their strength,  so we can't really say much about them in general terms. ....oh the other races,  well  here's a few very simplistic and general things about this and that race. ...because that's how they are.

I too hope that we will see an Elf/Dwarf book at some point,  but if that happens I sincerely hope it won't just be more of what was in Run faster.
« Last Edit: (22:10:17/01-22-18) by Rosa »

Glyph

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« Reply #16 on: (22:26:13/01-22-18) »
3rd Edition had the best writeups, where a member of each metatype gave a run-down on how their group was typically perceived - and then dissected those stereotypes to give a more balanced portrayal.

Run Faster, by contrast, gives metatypes constraining "cultures", and sticks most of them in it, leaving players a binary choice between embodying a negative stereotype, or being a social outcast among your own metatype.  The dwarf and elf depictions were especially noxious, making both groups out to be insular xenophobes with a superiority complex.

PMrk

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« Reply #17 on: (23:25:31/01-22-18) »
3rd Edition had the best writeups, where a member of each metatype gave a run-down on how their group was typically perceived - and then dissected those stereotypes to give a more balanced portrayal.

Agree. Those were the best ones and right in the corebook!

In comparison, the 2e ones were... sparse. 4e was more clinically detached.

To be fair, I like the other ones in Run Faster. Had some issues about the dwarven one, but in general, they were quite balanced and informative. Except the elves, which was kinda informative, but heavily biased.

Sterling

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« Reply #18 on: (07:52:41/01-23-18) »
I think you are getting yourself a little confused about the metatypes.

Technically, all the "races" in Shadowrun are just off shoots of Humans, no matter how different they look. So while an Elf being "prettier" then the other races is an actual physical trait, things like "Environmentalism" are not physical traits, but personal outlooks (OR Belief, or ethical duty, or whatever buzz word you want to use to say "Personal Opinion"). Elves by and large are no more or less concerned about the environment than any other metatype

I always felt that the definition of elves, orks, dwarfs, and trolls being offshoots of Homo Sapiens was simply an attempt by scientists to explain the re-emergence of magic. If scientists had said dragons were offshoots of alligators would we still be insisting they should be limited to the swamps of the south-east?
"His name is Sterling. Hes an ex-pat Brit making a living as a fixer and a hacker in Metropole. Hes a rare blend of upstanding and fun...(so) listen to his experience."
>>Data Trails, p.82

Osentalka

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« Reply #19 on: (09:24:24/01-23-18) »
I always felt that the definition of elves, orks, dwarfs, and trolls being offshoots of Homo Sapiens was simply an attempt by scientists to explain the re-emergence of magic. If scientists had said dragons were offshoots of alligators would we still be insisting they should be limited to the swamps of the south-east?

Except of course during the initial Awakening all elves, orks, dwarfs and trolls were either humans or the offspring of humans.

Sphinx

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« Reply #20 on: (10:17:13/01-23-18) »
I always felt that the definition of elves, orks, dwarfs, and trolls being offshoots of Homo Sapiens was simply an attempt by scientists to explain the re-emergence of magic.

Biologically, all the metatypes are subspecies of human because they can have fertile children. In other words, an ork and a dwarf can make a baby, who can then grow up and have children of its own, therefore both parents are subtypes of the same species (homo sapiens).

Quick recap, because so many people seem to get this wrong:

Human parents began having elf and dwarf babies in 2011, a phenomenon called Unexplained Genetic Expression (UGE). Note that UGE applies only to elves and dwarfs. As far as most people are concerned, the oldest elves and dwarfs are 69 years old in 2080 -- except for a very small number of immortals and spike babies that relatively few people know about. (Back in 2050, when we first started shadowrunning, the oldest elves and dwarfs were just 39 years old, as far as anyone knew.) Elves and dwarfs do not metamorphose at puberty or any other time; they're only born that way. UGE has slowed down, but human parents occasionally have an elf or dwarf baby.

The first orks and trolls appeared on Goblinization Day, 30 April 2021. Ten percent of humans everywhere, of all ages, spontaneously transformed into orks and trolls. There have been orks and trolls of every age and ethnicity since 2021, but not before then. Some orks and trolls still metamorphose at puberty, but this is rare. By 2080, they're mostly orks and trolls from birth. Goblinization applies only to orks and trolls, not elves and dwarfs.

There are no halfbreeds. If parents are different metatypes, children will be one or the other (or possibly plain human). If parents are the same metatype, children are almost always that metatype. But under normal circumstances, a healthy baby of any two metatypes can grow up to have children of its own, therefore all the metatypes belong to the same species.
« Last Edit: (10:26:55/01-23-18) by Sphinx »

Magnaric

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« Reply #21 on: (16:28:27/01-23-18) »
Slightly off topic, but have they confirmed they're doing a race/culture book for Elves and Dwarves? After Complete Trog came out I sort of assumed it might happen, but I haven't seen anything official

But yeah, I'm a huge Dwarf enthusiast in tabletop and I will say that I normally like them having their own culture, language, etc, but admittedly that's also a more D&D-esque thing. Realistically, you don't have entire cultures and languages defined by something like ethnicity. The world is just too large and civilisations too spread out for that.

Having said that, it would be nice if Dwarves had some ancient traditions that were discovered from ages past, even in the form of a proto-language that influenced many modern languages.  Sort of like 4th World Latin. I do understand that they wanted to do something different with Dwarves as opposed to just making them another completely "different" race, so having them blend into society more easily is interesting.

So here's a random though I had the other day. NOTE: This deals with Earthdawn a bit so is in no way canon.

The worldwide social network and Dwarves just blending into society almost imvisibly was a touch far fetched for me, even for Shadowrun, until I thought about why that might be. Back in Earthdawn days, AKA 4th World, when the various people of Barsaive came out of the caers and formed societies again and then resisted/rebelled rule by the Therans, the main group that formed the foundation of this was the Dwarves in the Kingdom of Throal.

It's established in the lore that people of all raves,  at least in that part of the world, looked to Throal for leadership, protection, etc. Even the city of Throal itself (a massive Dwarven metropolis) had such a large population of other races, refugees, etc that there was almost another city outside its walls, as well as a significant foreign quarter. It was essentially one of the earliest Sprawls.

So you have Dwarven society, language, culture, traditions, businesses, and a ton of other things forming the core of Barsaive life for centuries. Now we don't know what happened to the Kingdom in the 5th age, but regardless Dwarves already influenced other societies by over the course of many generations. If the majority of the metaraces became human or humans kind of took over during the low-magic of the 5th World, they'd still have all these subtle little influences and hallmarks they got from the Dwarves they learned from.

So that's why Dwarves naturally fit into Human society better. Because is ways most people will never realise,  Human society IS Dwarven society, and Human culture CAME FROM Dwarven culture. Hell most modern slavic languages could probably trace their original syntax to ancient Dwarven.

Dwarves fit into Human society because if it wasn't for Throal, all Human society would be Theran. And Thera...did not end well.
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AJCarrington

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« Reply #22 on: (16:41:37/01-23-18) »
Slightly off topic, but have they confirmed they're doing a race/culture book for Elves and Dwarves? After Complete Trog came out I sort of assumed it might happen, but I haven't seen anything official

I thought I saw something referenced on FB...someone had seen/heard the comment in the video blog / podcast, but can't seem to track that down at the moment.

Sphinx

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« Reply #23 on: (18:10:22/01-23-18) »
I thought I saw something referenced on FB...someone had seen/heard the comment in the video blog / podcast, but can't seem to track that down at the moment.

There are separate Dwarf and Elf books on the horizon, according to a comment by KatoHearts in this thread:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=254.0

Probably referring to this podcast, but I haven't listened to it:
http://sixthworldpodcast.libsyn.com/ep-028-rpg-development-w-jason-hardy?tdest_id=428159

Sterling

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« Reply #24 on: (08:00:07/01-24-18) »
I always felt that the definition of elves, orks, dwarfs, and trolls being offshoots of Homo Sapiens was simply an attempt by scientists to explain the re-emergence of magic.

Biologically, all the metatypes are subspecies of human because they can have fertile children. In other words, an ork and a dwarf can make a baby, who can then grow up and have children of its own, therefore both parents are subtypes of the same species (homo sapiens).

I hadn't considered the reproductive side of things, good catch.
"His name is Sterling. Hes an ex-pat Brit making a living as a fixer and a hacker in Metropole. Hes a rare blend of upstanding and fun...(so) listen to his experience."
>>Data Trails, p.82

AJCarrington

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« Reply #25 on: (08:21:12/01-24-18) »
There are separate Dwarf and Elf books on the horizon, according to a comment by KatoHearts in this thread:
http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=254.0

Probably referring to this podcast, but I haven't listened to it:
http://sixthworldpodcast.libsyn.com/ep-028-rpg-development-w-jason-hardy?tdest_id=428159

Thanks Sphinx  ;)

Vormaerin

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« Reply #26 on: (07:58:24/01-27-18) »
One of my biggest pet peeves about the way Shadowrun does things in the fluff is the constant confusion between race and culture.  There is no "Ork" culture or "Elf" culture.  Any more than there is a "human" culture.   The Elves of China do not share a culture with the Elves of Africa or Europe.

Yeah, you can argue that the snowflakes have a culture they are trying to propagate, but there's nothing that suggests that's universally Elvish even in Earthdawn.  All the snowflakes seem to have been from the area of the Theran Empire, which did not control the entire world.

Its like the references to "Orkish" restaurants and cuisine.  Where did this Orkish cuisine come from?  Why would an Ork in Mexico have any food preferences in common with an Ork from Mongolia?  Besides "need to eat more than a human."


That said, most of what's written in the core rules is generally only true of the Seattle based campaign and Elves from that area are often infected with Tir disease.

Rosa

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« Reply #27 on: (21:30:53/01-27-18) »
Not entirely correct about the Earthdawn stuff.  Harlequin, Ehran and Alachia are originally from Sereatha,  Alachia later from Wyrmwood / Bloodwood as are Aithne Oakforest and Aina Dupree and probably also Jenna Ni'fairra.  Those are the only ones we can place with any certainty and none of them are from Thera.

As far as a uniformly Elven culture goes in Earthdawn,  you could argue that there actually is such a thing due to the special role the Elven court had before the scourge as the authority on what it means to be Elven.  That being said there are local differences most notable between Wyrmwood and Shosara. The elves of Cathay though do not adhere to this idea of elven culture.

I completely agree though that Run faster suddenly made it seem like Elven culture was suddenly a global thing and that the idea of the path of the wheel were suddenly also a global thing rather than a predominantly Tir Na Nog thing. This also rubbed me very much the wrong way.

Glyph

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« Reply #28 on: (00:11:33/01-28-18) »
Yeah, the elf and dwarf writeups, especially, were waaaay too dogmatic.  I'm definitely going to skip the two upcoming sourcebooks about them, unless I hear they give a serious ret-con to the Run Faster garbage.

Me, I like playing elves and dwarves who fit the stereotypes in some ways, and flout them in others.  Who have friends and contacts both within and outside of their own metatype.  Not this constraining, either-or culture/counterculture.