[Coville]

Here is my scenario (5e rules are being played).  A Sam has an Armor Jacket (av-12), helmet (av-+2), Gel packs (av-+2), Titanium Bone lacing (av-+3 ), Orthoskin (av-+2) for a total of 21.  So the Sam player says that anything with a power of less then 21 will do stun damage to him, so if I hit him with a HMG he only takes Stun.  I however disagree and tell him his AV for determining PvS is only 12 because on page 169 of the Corebook it states:
Armor accessories, items listed with a “+” in front of
their rating, add to the character’s Armor for the purpose
of Damage Resistance tests.
So therefore all the plus armor is only for the damage resistance NOT the PvS determination.  Naturally this royally pissed him off.  So who is right?  I am pretty sure this is in these forums somewhere but sure could not find it. Thanks for the help.

[firebug]

That quote from the rulebook doesn't say "only" anywhere, so there's no reason to assume it doesn't affect whether or not an attack is Stun damage.  Also, the bonus from Orthoskin is not a modifier the way a helmet is (as it cannot reduce your AGI or REA), it simply adds to your armor.

Regardless, what determines whether an attack is Stun or Physical is the modified armor rating.  If you were to argue that things like helmets don't add to the modified armor rating, then when the book says "the defender rolls Body + modified Armor to resist damage" that would mean the bonus from helmets wouldn't apply either, which is clearly not how things are intended to work.

I think you'll find most people on this forum will agree with me about armor mods making it harder to cause Physical damage.

[Coville]

Thanks for the reply.  Was having issues with that rule.  Makes things easier if Armor all just adds together but at the same time a lot of bullet-proof characters are running around now.

[Ktonberry249]

Stun can be just as bad, and many characters have a smaller pool of stun than physical.

[Ghost Rigger]

Thanks for the reply.  Was having issues with that rule.  Makes things easier if Armor all just adds together but at the same time a lot of bullet-proof characters are running around now.

So use bigger guns and APDS rounds.

[Reaver]

Keep in mind there are many attacks that change the armor value of a target (hence why its 'modified armor rating' in the test).

Spells, high powered weapons, specialized ammo all decrease the armor of a target.

Yes, if the DV is still lower then the armor, the attack does stun damage, but as others poing out, that can be just as bad.... dice pool modifiers add up not mention that silly unconsiousness thing when your stun track fills up!

[Kiirnodel]

Now, all that being said, I could see your ruling of armor accessories not factoring into the physical-to-stun conversion being an interesting house-rule. It would give a lot of attacks a more lethal effect. It might need some tweaking, as that would actually make it rather hard to have any attack convert to stun, but still.

[firebug]

As a couple others have mentioned, Stun is not just better to take than Physical.  For the majority of players, they will have a shorter Stun track than Physical.  Stun cannot be recovered with the Heal spell; only Stim Patches can remove it outside of simply resting.  And Stim Patches carry a very significant issue of "if I have to use too many, I may immediately die when they wear off".  A character who has used Stim Patches to recover more Stun than they are capable of taking is in serious danger.  Where as a target can continue to be wounded, then Healed, then wounded, then Healed without risk.

And if your whole team is knocked unconscious "non-lethally", it doesn't mean you all just wake up back at home and the run failed.  It means you will wish you died when you wake up in prison (if you're lucky) or in a corporate torture chamber (if you're not).

The only situation where taking Stun damage is preferable is when the person taking the damage is a street samurai with the Pain Editor cultured bioware.  Or I suppose a technomancer with the FFF Echo, but...

[Danos]

Yeah, if that heavily armored person gets knocked out, who is carrying him?

I would be inclined to drop him in the water. If he is on a dock and a grenade goes off under him, he might only take stun damage, but then you will get to see how well he swims wearing all that stuff.

[Spooky]

Also, don't forget that "modified armor rating" includes the effects of AP (armor penetration). This is why my character, an ex-military scout/sniper, is very lethal. He uses an Ares Desert Strike (AP -4) with APDS ammo (AP -4) for a total of AP -8 for a standard shot. For those targets that are heavily armored, (such as your player), he uses the Bulls-Eye Double Tap called shot in order to double the AP to -16. Pretty easy to deal Physical damage at that point...

[Kiirnodel]

Also, don't forget that "modified armor rating" includes the effects of AP (armor penetration). This is why my character, an ex-military scout/sniper, is very lethal. He uses an Ares Desert Strike (AP -4) with APDS ammo (AP -4) for a total of AP -8 for a standard shot. For those targets that are heavily armored, (such as your player), he uses the Bulls-Eye Double Tap called shot in order to double the AP to -16. Pretty easy to deal Physical damage at that point...

While you are correct on all the major points, they did errata the bulls-eye double tap such that it only doubles the base weapon AP value. So your example would be increased to -12 (-4 APDS + desert strike -4 × 2).

[Quatar]

Except that while you're correct that it only affects the base weapon AP, it can actually tripple it, so -16 is correct.

P. 116, BULLS-EYE DOUBLE TAP/BURST
CLARIFICATION
The last sentence under the Effects sub-header should be
changed from “The attack results in an AP increase equal to
the base AP multiplied by the number of bullets in the burst
with a maximum modifier of x3” to “The attack results in an
AP increase equal to the base weapon AP multiplied by the
number of bullets in the burst with a maximum modifier of
x3.”

[Marcus]

High armor is no issue to deal with, use melee weapons, called shots/hit locations, Mana spells, Hit'em in the attributes, mind control, brick all his gear/wear, turn him to goo, there a long list of other options, take look at critter powers, make him run away in terror. Passing out heavy weapons to npc is just giving your PCs big weapons or some extra-cash. Nothing more fun then grabbing a tank, and seeing how long it takes the team to knock him out.
Or if you just like guns, just keep shooting, stun still kills. Once the target is out cold, then it really doesn't matter what type of damage you're using.