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Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1275 on: <07-14-20/1500:25> »
I'll admit that when I read "FA with missiles and grenades in KK!" I experienced trepidation.

But now having read the source directly: I'm less concerned, as you can't perform Wide BF or Narrow BF bursts, nor does it appear that the intent is to allow performing FA bursts either. (although a restriction against doing so probably ought to be tightened up)

I can't access the source atm, but I do not recall any language preventing any of those things, just less reliable rules for how they scatter. Even if that is accurate just having a launcher with the capability to FA explosives, and the new attack modes that can potentially unlock, is the last thing the most overpowered attack in the game needed.

The firing mode entry says "FA", but the notes imply that it cannot do FA bursts.  As I said... something that may need to be tightened up. 
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #1276 on: <07-14-20/1505:09> »
I'll admit that when I read "FA with missiles and grenades in KK!" I experienced trepidation.

But now having read the source directly: I'm less concerned, as you can't perform Wide BF or Narrow BF bursts, nor does it appear that the intent is to allow performing FA bursts either. (although a restriction against doing so probably ought to be tightened up)

I can't access the source atm, but I do not recall any language preventing any of those things, just less reliable rules for how they scatter. Even if that is accurate just having a launcher with the capability to FA explosives, and the new attack modes that can potentially unlock, is the last thing the most overpowered attack in the game needed.

The firing mode entry says "FA", but the notes imply that it cannot do FA bursts.  As I said... something that may need to be tightened up.

Well if that is the case then I am unsure why it would need a firing mode other than SS. Personally, the way I read the special notes, Calliope "can fire all of the remaining rockets at once" meaning 10 explosive attacks, and the carpet's (paraphrasing) one grenade fires and scatters as normal, the remainder fire and scatter two times as far meanings 6 explosive attacks per fire.

If that is not what is intended then those notes need a lot of work. Even with the extra scatter range, an optimized pc with 24 dice and and air-burst (this is doable out of chargen) will usually pinpoint land every single one of those explosives.

Edit: Just double checked again to make sure I wasn't in delirium. If you opt to fire all of Calliope's load it basically reads like a go ahead and take a free 10 attack anticipate. . .only with rockets that auto scatter. The carpet, on the other hand, is still really reliable. Yeah it scatters two or possibly three times as far as normal, but 2 or 3 times zero is still "all 6 grenades land in your mouth, you take 16P six times, sorry bro".

Edit 2: CanRay might be able to offer some insight on this one, but if I am getting the intention of the calliope right, I think a better wording would be as follows:

"Select the number of rockets you wish to fire, from 1 to 10. Select a single range you wish to fire all rockets at. Now roll scatter direction for each rocket fired to determine which way it actually projects from the launcher, than make your attack roll as normal to see how far it scatters from the selected range and scatter direction rolled.".
« Last Edit: <07-14-20/1516:10> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Banshee

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« Reply #1277 on: <07-14-20/1524:11> »
I'll admit that when I read "FA with missiles and grenades in KK!" I experienced trepidation.

But now having read the source directly: I'm less concerned, as you can't perform Wide BF or Narrow BF bursts, nor does it appear that the intent is to allow performing FA bursts either. (although a restriction against doing so probably ought to be tightened up)

I can't access the source atm, but I do not recall any language preventing any of those things, just less reliable rules for how they scatter. Even if that is accurate just having a launcher with the capability to FA explosives, and the new attack modes that can potentially unlock, is the last thing the most overpowered attack in the game needed.

The firing mode entry says "FA", but the notes imply that it cannot do FA bursts.  As I said... something that may need to be tightened up.

Well if that is the case then I am unsure why it would need a firing mode other than SS. Personally, the way I read the special notes, Calliope "can fire all of the remaining rockets at once" meaning 10 explosive attacks, and the carpet's (paraphrasing) one grenade fires and scatters as normal, the remainder fire and scatter two times as far meanings 6 explosive attacks per fire.

If that is not what is intended then those notes need a lot of work. Even with the extra scatter range, an optimized pc with 24 dice and and air-burst (this is doable out of chargen) will usually pinpoint land every single one of those explosives.

Edit: Just double checked again to make sure I wasn't in delirium. If you opt to fire all of Calliope's load it basically reads like a go ahead and take a free 10 attack anticipate. . .only with rockets that auto scatter. The carpet, on the other hand, is still really reliable. Yeah it scatters two or possibly three times as far as normal, but 2 or 3 times zero is still "all 6 grenades land in your mouth, you take 16P six times, sorry bro".

Edit 2: CanRay might be able to offer some insight on this one, but if I am getting the intention of the calliope right, I think a better wording would be as follows:

"Select the number of rockets you wish to fire, from 1 to 10. Select a single range you wish to fire all rockets at. Now roll scatter direction for each rocket fired to determine which way it actually projects from the launcher, than make your attack roll as normal to see how far it scatters from the selected range and scatter direction rolled.".

Definitely needs some clarification (and Ray can chip in a set us on the right path) but I think only the scatter of the 1st grenade can be adjusted by successes (it does say targeting is based on just the o e grenade) then the additional scatter is meant to create more area of effect.
Still need to look at the rockets yet.

EDIT: I think the same intent is there for the rockets too. With the language using the term "carpeting" in both cases.
« Last Edit: <07-14-20/1527:16> by Banshee »
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Hobbes

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« Reply #1278 on: <07-14-20/1652:29> »
Isn't the Calliope a vehicle mounted Multi-tube missile launcher?  That's not even remotely concealable. 

It's this thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha_rocket_launcher

No way that just drives around, even in the CZ or Barrens.  Eventually a drone will spot it and call in the air strike.

Lormyr

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« Reply #1279 on: <07-14-20/1723:11> »
Isn't the Calliope a vehicle mounted Multi-tube missile launcher?

That is my understanding.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1280 on: <07-14-20/1752:05> »
Isn't the Calliope a vehicle mounted Multi-tube missile launcher?

That is my understanding.

That's got a large amount of why I'm not particularly worried about them.  Even if you possess one it doesn't mean you're going to get to USE one. 
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #1281 on: <07-14-20/1758:53> »
Isn't the Calliope a vehicle mounted Multi-tube missile launcher?

That is my understanding.

That's got a large amount of why I'm not particularly worried about them.  Even if you possess one it doesn't mean you're going to get to USE one.

That one is also very poorly worded, so I am not certain my understanding of how it works is what is intended.

The grenade launcher is not mounted, though, and even if hits don't reduce the scatter distance of the additional grenades, 1 direct hit to the mouth followed by 5 free splashes is still ludicrously op.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1282 on: <07-14-20/1804:22> »
The Carpet is literally for carpet bombing.

Yes it says the firing mode is FA, but when you read the notes you see that you only actually aim 1 of the grenades, and the rest increasingly auto-deviate.

So no even with Carpet you can't target 6 different people with grenades.  (although yes I agree the "FA" ought to change to "SS" so as to nip this exact argument in the bud)
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #1283 on: <07-14-20/1807:54> »
Right, but consider this:

You target one grenade, you land it square on target, which takes 16P.

The remaining five grenades scatter at twice distance (not scatter in random direction...) away from the target, for an average of 14m off target, which still leaves the poor fuck within the five additional 20m explosions. And that is if there is no means of reducing the scatter, like net hits or air-bust normally do.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1284 on: <07-14-20/1815:49> »
Right, but consider this:

You target one grenade, you land it square on target, which takes 16P.

The remaining five grenades scatter at twice distance (not scatter in random direction...) away from the target, for an average of 14m off target, which still leaves the poor fuck within the 20m explosion.

Are you any MORE dead from taking 60 DV across 6 soaks than 16DV across 1 soak?

Carpet is also one-and-done.  Via the air, which means it's impossible or impractical in all kinds of indoors contexts.

And where setting off 1 grenade might get you some Heat and/or Reputation penalty, it's all the more-so when you carpet bomb.

So long as you can't FA burst them, I'm not seeing any actual problem (beyond the elephant of grenades doing so much damage to begin with).
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

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« Reply #1285 on: <07-14-20/1817:34> »
1 hit of 16P is survivable. 1 hit of 16P, followed by 5 hits of 8P is not.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

CanRay

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« Reply #1286 on: <07-15-20/1118:11> »
Errata is being worked on.  Amazing, I know.   ;D
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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CanRay

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« Reply #1287 on: <07-15-20/1126:40> »
Also, yes, let's go with the Calliope and Carpet Fire Modes being "SS*", where the "*" is the special rules for all the other warheads/grenades that go all over the place.

"Explosives in Shadowrun are horribly OP."  Um, explosives IRL are horribly OP.  We use those things to blow up the sides of mountains!

Also, one rocket/grenade going off in one part of the Barrens, "Is it Tuesday already?"  6-10 rockets/grenades all going off at once in the same area, "Damnit, that's enough that we have to call in the Sprawl Guard with their military-grade light tanks, assault rifles, LMGs, and grenades with launchers of their own."

Sprawl Guard:  "Wait, we actually get to go out and be soldiers rather than all the other stupid stuff we have to do all the time, all right, Nancy, my Ares Alpha, is hungry!!!  TIME TO FEED THE MACHINE!!!"
Si vis pacem, para bellum

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Lormyr

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« Reply #1288 on: <07-15-20/1147:01> »
Errata is being worked on.  Amazing, I know.   ;D

Also, yes, let's go with the Calliope and Carpet Fire Modes being "SS*", where the "*" is the special rules for all the other warheads/grenades that go all over the place.

That helps.

"Explosives in Shadowrun are horribly OP."  Um, explosives IRL are horribly OP.  We use those things to blow up the sides of mountains!

Sure. I concede that in real life explosives kill you. Now let's get back to game discussion.

If you were playing shadowrun 6 with a PC, and died to one grenade toss with no defense test, would you consider that either fun or balanced? If yes, why?

Also if yes, do you consider that the same in other tabletop RPGs you play? Take DnD for example. If there was a weapon anyone could pick up, that gave you a +10 untyped bonus to hit, and killed you if you were anything other than an 18 Con barbarian, would you still feel the same?

It's the exact same situation.

Edit: I personally also believe that social ramifications for overpowered game mechanics is a poor balancing factor. They can be part of the balancing factor and work well, but there needs to be game mechanics to balance game mechanics. Currently, if a character takes a direct hit from a grenade (which is very easy to do reliably), you are fucking deceased unless you have a massive body score and/or cybernetic limbs for extra boxes. Something as simple as a defense test, which should apply to any attack, would significantly improve game balance.
« Last Edit: <07-15-20/1152:33> by Lormyr »
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #1289 on: <07-15-20/1346:35> »

"Explosives in Shadowrun are horribly OP."  Um, explosives IRL are horribly OP.  We use those things to blow up the sides of mountains!



50cals are deadly as well and yet we have defense tests and game mechanics that make them survivable. Are grenades deadly sure,are they more deadly than a shot to the face by a anti equipment rifle.  No, no they are not. In fact they are far less deadly than that.  Halve the damage in each band, add a defense test, if the defender has more net hits they are one range band further away than the scatter would indicate, if after scatter the attacker has net hits they add to damage.