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Mirikon

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« Reply #315 on: <03-28-12/2136:16> »
That's what I'm getting at, actually. There are plenty of Infected that are just trying to get by. Vampires have it worse than Ghouls, since they can't just get fresh body parts from organleggers to sustain themselves.

At a certain point, supremacist groups and cults have a lot in common. You take someone who is isolated and alone, give them a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose, a sense that they are better than the people around them. You tell them that their problems are caused by outsiders, and you make them shun everyone else until they are completely dedicated to your cause. The guy at the top and his main disciples are almost certainly monsters. But most of the people involved likely are the same kind of people as the ghouls who used to live in Ghoultown before Bug City, people who simply had nowhere else to go.

Painting all the Infected as scary and dangerous as some may want to is as bad as people who say they're all sparkly and emo.
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« Reply #316 on: <03-29-12/0424:43> »
You guys keep forgetting the evil that is the tax man.

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Mirikon

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« Reply #317 on: <03-29-12/0656:36> »
CanRay! You're back!
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JustADude

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« Reply #318 on: <03-29-12/0754:13> »
That's what I'm getting at, actually. There are plenty of Infected that are just trying to get by. Vampires have it worse than Ghouls, since they can't just get fresh body parts from organleggers to sustain themselves.

*SNIP*

Painting all the Infected as scary and dangerous as some may want to is as bad as people who say they're all sparkly and emo.

Vampires just need metahuman blood, which is less useful to Organleggers than the fleshy bits Ghouls eat. If they're already used to dealing with ghouls, as most Organleggers probably are, then sticking a bucket under the drain-hole on the butchering table and selling the "runoff" is just good use of resources, if they have a potential client looking for it.

And Infected are scary and dangerous at anything approaching PC-level stats... thing is, so is a Street Samurai, an Adept, a Mage, a Rigger/Hacker, or just about any other Shadowrunner.

Those 20+ DP combat pools Sams and Adepts take for granted represent someone who is at the upper limits of magically/technically-augmented human lethality; the kinds of people that are better than real-world legends like Audy Murphy, Simo Hayha, Sun Tsu, and Leonidas could ever hope to be. Hackers run state-of-the-art programs and hardware, blowing through security and twisting the Matrix to their whims while the Riggers launch surprise attacks with invisible combat drones sporting military grade weapons. And don't forget Mages... they can call down spirits that appear from nowhere, laughing at the weapons turned against them, to wreck havoc on command as the Mage himself bends reality to his will to fling fire and lightning, heal deadly wounds in moments, and even subvert your very thoughts to his ends.

Any 400 BP character is scary and dangerous. Scary and dangerous is what Shadowrun is all about. ;D
« Last Edit: <03-29-12/0818:32> by JustADude »
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Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #319 on: <03-29-12/0909:54> »
Vampires just need metahuman blood....
Um...no. Of the things that vampires need to survive, blood is the easiest and least harmful thing to acquire.
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shrike

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« Reply #320 on: <03-29-12/0918:13> »
Vampires just need metahuman blood....
Um...no. Of the things that vampires need to survive, blood is the easiest and least harmful thing to acquire.
They also need essence...
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JustADude

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« Reply #321 on: <03-29-12/0940:47> »
Vampires just need metahuman blood....
Um...no. Of the things that vampires need to survive, blood is the easiest and least harmful thing to acquire.
They also need essence...

After looking at Runner's Companion, yes it seems I did indeed forget Ghouls don't have Essence Loss like the Type 1 Infected do. Oh I'm such a horrible, horrible person for not thoroughly checking the books before I make a comment about anything in the game. Whatever shall I do with myself.

Still doesn't change the fact that not only can Vampires hide what they are better than Ghouls, but Essence Drain is much more... subtle... than gnawing on someone's face, and makes the person want to come back for more. Given how callous towards human life the average non-Infected PC is in this game, a Vampire could easily salve their conscience by paying willing (if stupid) donors for their Essence and not taking that last point... or, if they just don't give a crap, just taking the money back and handing the body off to the aforementioned Organleggers / Ghouls after they're done with it and getting paid for their snack.
« Last Edit: <03-29-12/0945:20> by JustADude »
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Sichr

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« Reply #322 on: <03-29-12/0946:45> »
Part of my whole thesis regarding HMHVV is that the disease fucks with you, eats you alive from the inside. The disease itself is evil and malicious, and it tries to corrupt everything about its victims. Some of them embrace that, others fight it.

The big-bad in ARN? Probably would have turned out to be a complete stain on humanity even without being turned. He's ruthless and cruel, has way more money than is good for him, and he enjoys what he's become. Teresa Castillo? Probably a lot the same; she wasn't quite right when she was human, and after she got Infected she got worse. They were probably born monsters, or found it easy to become monsters as they grew up.

The central character in "Sail Away Sweet Sister" (the story formerly known as "After Midnight"), though? Not so much. Nice kid who got Infected and hates it, and what it's doing to her.

It's not all cut-and-dried. I mean, ultimately, yeah, you're right to a degree. "We" is a bunch of Infected-supremacist terrorists. But I don't think anything's ever that simple, and if it comes across that way...well, I'm doing something wrong.


Really very important for me to get a grip on infected at all is: The origin of HMHVV. Where does it come from. What the hell is this virus supposed to achieve...this is not any evolution thing...this virus must have been designed and released from somewhere.Because its virulence is too damn high. And because it not only spreads too fast. but it makes carriers kill another possible hosts, so it limits the posssibility of infection on the other side. Its completely sucesfull, this virus destroys itself and every possible host. So where the hell does it came from...

Critias

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« Reply #323 on: <03-29-12/1025:13> »
Vampires just need metahuman blood....
Um...no. Of the things that vampires need to survive, blood is the easiest and least harmful thing to acquire.
They also need essence...

After looking at Runner's Companion, yes it seems I did indeed forget Ghouls don't have Essence Loss like the Type 1 Infected do. Oh I'm such a horrible, horrible person for not thoroughly checking the books before I make a comment about anything in the game. Whatever shall I do with myself.
C'mon, Dude.  There's no call for that level of snark, when folks were just politely correcting you. 

AJCarrington

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« Reply #324 on: <03-29-12/1033:22> »
Painting all the Infected as scary and dangerous as some may want to is as bad as people who say they're all sparkly and emo.

Fair point and well said.  While my preference leans towards the dark/scary (I don't think everything needs to have a "good" side), there is nothing wrong with any portrayal as long as it fits within the context of the campaign and the GM/player preferences.

AJC

JustADude

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« Reply #325 on: <03-29-12/1041:28> »
Vampires just need metahuman blood....
Um...no. Of the things that vampires need to survive, blood is the easiest and least harmful thing to acquire.
They also need essence...

After looking at Runner's Companion, yes it seems I did indeed forget Ghouls don't have Essence Loss like the Type 1 Infected do. Oh I'm such a horrible, horrible person for not thoroughly checking the books before I make a comment about anything in the game. Whatever shall I do with myself.
C'mon, Dude.  There's no call for that level of snark, when folks were just politely correcting you.

Yeah, in retrospect that was a little uncalled-for; after the day I had, I was feeling a touch cranky and defensive there. :(
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Sichr

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« Reply #326 on: <03-29-12/1042:17> »
Painting all the Infected as scary and dangerous as some may want to is as bad as people who say they're all sparkly and emo.

Fair point and well said.  While my preference leans towards the dark/scary (I don't think everything needs to have a "good" side), there is nothing wrong with any portrayal as long as it fits within the context of the campaign and the GM/player preferences.

AJC

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AJCarrington

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« Reply #327 on: <03-29-12/1046:14> »
Indeed... ::)

AJC

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #328 on: <03-29-12/1127:28> »
Part of me really thinks that I should move this to another thread, since this really isn't about upcoming releases anymore (except in the vaguest sense, since "Sister" isn't even on the production schedule yet since I've not technically, formally pitched it to Jason and Peter just yet). I'm loath to do it, though, because of issues of momentum and inertia that are just as real in coversation as they are in physics.

That's what I'm getting at, actually. There are plenty of Infected that are just trying to get by. Vampires have it worse than Ghouls, since they can't just get fresh body parts from organleggers to sustain themselves.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of the ones trying to get by are lying to themselves, as are some of the people trying to help them. I think "Infected rights" is a tragedy and a travesty, not because I think the Infected need to be marginalized and exterminated, but because I think they need to be cured. When you create this "rights movement" and create a new class of victims, you demonstrate acceptance, and nothing gets done because now it's acceptable.

Thomas McAllister doesn't want "Infected rights," he wants a cure for HMHVV. Mr. Big doesn't want them because he thinks it's insulting and unnatural. They both have their reasons, and they're both blind in their own way.

Vampires (and I use the term very generically here) are mostly just holding on, hoping that they can become not-monsters again somehow. And most of them justify their monster-ness to themselves, telling themselves that they're just victims and can't help themselves...which is true. That they fight it is commendable. Doesn't for an instant make them not-monsters. That's where the delusion sets in, IMO. They think because they fight it, they're not monsters. This is not the case, and it drives some of them mad.

If I sound self-contradictory in places...well, in some cases I am. As I said elsewhere, it's complex (and I know you get that, but I feel the need to point it out again for some of the rest of the audience, who might just be joining the show already in progress, as it were).
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At a certain point, supremacist groups and cults have a lot in common. You take someone who is isolated and alone, give them a sense of belonging, a sense of purpose, a sense that they are better than the people around them. You tell them that their problems are caused by outsiders, and you make them shun everyone else until they are completely dedicated to your cause. The guy at the top and his main disciples are almost certainly monsters. But most of the people involved likely are the same kind of people as the ghouls who used to live in Ghoultown before Bug City, people who simply had nowhere else to go.
Yes and no. Yes, because you really do seem to understand the dynamic of how these things really work. No, because it's not always universal, IMO. I don't want to give too much away, but I don't think that most of the people in Mr. Big's organization are brainwashed drone-soldiers (though, to be fair, Teresa was). Mr. Big provided them with organization and logistical support, but most of the organization would be doing more or less the same thing without him.
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Painting all the Infected as scary and dangerous as some may want to is as bad as people who say they're all sparkly and emo.
I can't really argue with this, even though in some ways I'm one of the guilty parties....
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Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #329 on: <03-29-12/1156:27> »
Any 400 BP character is scary and dangerous. Scary and dangerous is what Shadowrun is all about. ;D
Not even going to get involved with this one. :D I question 400 BP being "scary and dangerous," but that's just a personal preference issue. I do agree, though, that this is what the game should be about. To a degree.
After looking at Runner's Companion, yes it seems I did indeed forget Ghouls don't have Essence Loss like the Type 1 Infected do. Oh I'm such a horrible, horrible person for not thoroughly checking the books before I make a comment about anything in the game. Whatever shall I do with myself.
Happens. Don't sweat it. My point was that it's more than just blood; didn't mean to stir things up and cause snark increases. Hope your day is improving; I know I hate it when mine go south.
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Still doesn't change the fact that not only can Vampires hide what they are better than Ghouls, but Essence Drain is much more... subtle... than gnawing on someone's face, and makes the person want to come back for more.
Well, sorta. Lots of things are more subtle than that, at least in appearance. Actual damage to the person involved...the face-gnawing might be easier to deal with....
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Given how callous towards human life the average non-Infected PC is in this game, a Vampire could easily salve their conscience by paying willing (if stupid) donors for their Essence and not taking that last point... or, if they just don't give a crap, just taking the money back and handing the body off to the aforementioned Organleggers / Ghouls after they're done with it and getting paid for their snack.
We must play in very different sorts of games. I don't tend to see the sort of callous disregard for life in groups I've played with that you appear to see. Not to say the PCs were saints, but they weren't callous about killing, in my experience. Maybe it's just me.
Really very important for me to get a grip on infected at all is: The origin of HMHVV. Where does it come from. What the hell is this virus supposed to achieve...this is not any evolution thing...this virus must have been designed and released from somewhere.Because its virulence is too damn high. And because it not only spreads too fast. but it makes carriers kill another possible hosts, so it limits the posssibility of infection on the other side. Its completely sucesfull, this virus destroys itself and every possible host. So where the hell does it came from...
I have some theories on this. I'm not sure at the moment how to get them into the fiction effectively, especially since some of those theories deal with the Fourth World. If I come up with something on how to pass those theories on, I'll let you know.
« Last Edit: <03-29-12/2335:49> by Patrick Goodman »
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