[Stahlseele]

And for guided ones?  Makes me think wire-guided missiles might be a better option.

Those can have sensors and agents/clear-shot/pilot installed for more dice, correct? O.o
on the flip side, even if you get +6 from sensors on the missle itself, you now operate under the signature rules, where everything below a freight train is considered to be small it seems, which means you get -3 to your dice-pool again . .
But the Software could change that one a bit.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Object size already accounts for a lot of the scatter.  As stated earlier, Citymasters, IFVs, and MBTs are all large objects with a significant footprint on the landscape.  Unguided rockets have a decent chance of hitting and doing damage.  The airburst upgrade dramatically improves those chances, and guided munitions have an even better chance, especially since you don't need LOS from the firer to the target, just from a spotter (which can be a tiny drone with a 'link).

[CanRay]

Or what looks like one of a dozen bums on the street.  Cheaper than a drone, too.

[Onion Man]

Or what looks like one of a dozen bums on the street.  Cheaper than a drone, too.

More expendable too.


Mmmmmmmm soy-
lent green.

[Chrona]

Could a spotter be used as a teamwork test?

[CanRay]

Could a spotter be used as a teamwork test?

With a TacNet, maybe.  Nice triangulated targeting to make absolutely, positively you're hitting the right target.

[JoeNapalm]

Object size already accounts for a lot of the scatter.  As stated earlier, Citymasters, IFVs, and MBTs are all large objects with a significant footprint on the landscape.  Unguided rockets have a decent chance of hitting and doing damage.  The airburst upgrade dramatically improves those chances, and guided munitions have an even better chance, especially since you don't need LOS from the firer to the target, just from a spotter (which can be a tiny drone with a 'link).

Not to have the same discussion on two boards, but unguided rockets simply do NOT have a decent chance to hit. The average Scatter is 14m, and an AV rocket needs to strike within 3m to inflict even minor damage, let alone penetrate vehicle armor. With 4D6, you're on a bell curve...think 1e D&D character gen...the results are weighted heavily toward the middle.

A typical trained individual (AGI 3, Hvy Wpn 3) simply CANNOT hit with a rocket unless the Defender Critical Glitches AND the Scatter dice come up a total of 6 or less on 4D6. This is AFTER rolling six hits on 6D6, mind you.

It is roughly the mathmatical eqivalent to rolling ten hits on ten dice...and he will still miss if the Defender scores a single hit to evade.

That doesn't qualify as a decent chance in my book.

You are better off hoping they get hit by a train at the next crossing.

Bear in mind that the entire system is designed such that, for every other (non-Scatter) weapon, an average shooter on an average roll vs an average defender will get one net hit, and thus strike the target. Ten net hits sounds broken to me.

Yes, there is splash damage. AV rockets degrade splash at 4D/1m - anything beyond 3m is negated, and even at 2m you are in small arms territory vs hard armor.

Yes, some vehicles are big, but the most common ones are simply armored version of street vehicles, and even a big tank should feel fairly safe if most of your munitions are hitting around 40ft out in a random direction.

Airburst helps somewhat, though your average miss distance is still twice your blast radius, and you're talking custom mods to a one-shot disposable. A mod that costs 3/4 of the cost of the weapon, and is meant to negate cover for GLs, not be a kill switch for bottle rockets.

Guided munitions are a separate, but related, issue...they shouldn't have scatter at all, unless they are being hit with ECM. But in any case, how guided munitions function has no bearing on how a rocket should behave.

Rockets (and GLs) are actually fairly precise and accurate - why make them into something so ridiculously wild and dangerous to everyone BUT the target?


-Jn-
City of Brass Expatriate

[The_Gun_Nut]

You apparently missed the whole part about the vehicle being big.  I mean, REALLY big.  At 7 meters long, an IFV is a good sized target.

Also, anyone who is firing a rocket at an aware, moving target is wasting money.  Unless you catch the target unawares, then, yes, the dumbfire rocket is going to have a problem hitting.  However, that's not how a soldier uses the things.  Essentially, AV rockets are the sniper shot against armor.  With the ranges listed, moving into a concealed position and launching one at an unaware target isn't that hard, and should be the soldier's first instinct.

The trained soldier, with a dice pool of 6, should also be using Edge to boost his chances and make that one shot count.  That pushes it into the 9 to 10 dice range.  He should also be aiming, granting an extra die to hit.  There is also the modifier for large targets (beyond the footprint).  Anything with a body of 15+ grants a +2 (or more, GM's call) to the attacker's dice pool.  That gives a DP of 12 to 13.  Double the original DP.  That gives an average of 4 hits vs. the scatter roll, assuming the (very) conservative bonus of only +2 for target size.  With those 4 hits, plus the 3.5 meter (half of 7 meters long IFV) footprint, the scatter roll becomes a luck roll for the target.  With the Airburst Link, the scatter roll is cut in half (from 4d6 to 2d6) which will typically mean, on average, the IFV will be popped.  A MBT is larger, and much easier to hit.

Against a moving, dodging target, grab a guided munition.  The sensor directly reduces scatter based on its rating.  It's a highly effective tool to combat armor.  Use the right tool for the job, and it will go far.

EDIT:  To give an example of street vehicles, a typical sedan is roughly 5 meters long by 2 meters wide.  A large truck is about 6 meters long by 2 meters wide.  The sedan will grant a +1 dice modifier due to size (body 10 to 12), while the truck will grant the +2 (body 16).  That's a much easier shot than you are making it out to be, Joe.  Use all the details of the shot, and make sure your GM is aware of them, and uses them too!

[Deliverator]

He has a point though, why make them so random? I mean even WWII rocket tubes have a pretty normal ballistic trajectory with minimal horizontal movement. A modern AT-4, once you learn the site system, is extremely effective within its "effective" range of 300m. (300m point target, 500m area target, 2100m maximum). Though if they were that effective in game everyone would have 5 of them in their trunk to take out everything from a street lamp to an MBT

[The_Gun_Nut]

Why make regular combat so random?  Have to inject some randomness in there to give the dice rollers something to do!

I think the extra randomness from scatter was mostly just there to figure out where an explosion goes off.  Although, TBH, I did find it odd that the scatter was so large.  Figuring in all the details is what made them nasty, for me.

[JoeNapalm]

You apparently missed the whole part about the vehicle being big.  I mean, REALLY big.  At 7 meters long, an IFV is a good sized target.

Also, anyone who is firing a rocket at an aware, moving target is wasting money.  Unless you catch the target unawares, then, yes, the dumbfire rocket is going to have a problem hitting.  However, that's not how a soldier uses the things.  Essentially, AV rockets are the sniper shot against armor.  With the ranges listed, moving into a concealed position and launching one at an unaware target isn't that hard, and should be the soldier's first instinct.

The trained soldier, with a dice pool of 6, should also be using Edge to boost his chances and make that one shot count.  That pushes it into the 9 to 10 dice range.  He should also be aiming, granting an extra die to hit.  There is also the modifier for large targets (beyond the footprint).  Anything with a body of 15+ grants a +2 (or more, GM's call) to the attacker's dice pool.  That gives a DP of 12 to 13.  Double the original DP.  That gives an average of 4 hits vs. the scatter roll, assuming the (very) conservative bonus of only +2 for target size.  With those 4 hits, plus the 3.5 meter (half of 7 meters long IFV) footprint, the scatter roll becomes a luck roll for the target.  With the Airburst Link, the scatter roll is cut in half (from 4d6 to 2d6) which will typically mean, on average, the IFV will be popped.  A MBT is larger, and much easier to hit.

Against a moving, dodging target, grab a guided munition.  The sensor directly reduces scatter based on its rating.  It's a highly effective tool to combat armor.  Use the right tool for the job, and it will go far.

EDIT:  To give an example of street vehicles, a typical sedan is roughly 5 meters long by 2 meters wide.  A large truck is about 6 meters long by 2 meters wide.  The sedan will grant a +1 dice modifier due to size (body 10 to 12), while the truck will grant the +2 (body 16).  That's a much easier shot than you are making it out to be, Joe.  Use all the details of the shot, and make sure your GM is aware of them, and uses them too!

Edge as an argument that AV rockets aren't broken?

If you have to burn Edge to even hit with a weapon, then I think that qualifies as broken.

Airlink, again, helps - of course it helps, because it cuts the unreasonable amount of Scatter in half - but should not be necessary. Putting pressure on a gunshot wound helps, but you wouldn't use it as an argument that being shot isn't such a bad thing.

Sensors make it a missile. People hit moving vehicles with rockets all the time. People shoot down helicopters with unguided rockets. You are right - in SR4, missiles are better choice vs moving targets. But I'm not talking missiles.

Just because things like Airlink, Edge, Sensors, rolling all 6s to hit and all 1s on Scatter make it possible to hit doesn't mean that the Scatter RAW are reasonable.

I didn't include the size modifiers...but they're practically negligible vs the huge Scatter numbers.

Using your own numbers (discounting Airlink because it shouldn't be required - RPGs and LAWs don't have it, and don't need it), even allowing for Edge (which I would maintain is not a reasonable requirement for using a non-experimental weapon that has been in military use for over a hundred years at the time of the setting) we get the following:

4 hits vs a 7m wide target. Allowing for 1 defensive hit (you cannot assume an ambush - yes, it's nice, but it's not a GIVEN) of an average defensive roll, you're still looking at at 14m - 3m for Net Hits - 3.5 (half the length).

14 - 6.5 = 7.5m, which is more than twice the blast radius of an AV rocket. Not just a miss, a big miss if you consider the thing has a 50% chance of impacting closer to the firer.

And that's burning a point of Edge.

Yeah, if you burned Edge AND had Airlink, it would ONLY miss by a little, so you could do splash damage. But you'd still miss.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Deliverator]

Personally if I were GMing if the vehicle is within 100m I'd say it doesn't get a dodge unless its sentient and has human levels of acceleration. An armored ground vehicle isn't going to have enough time to get into gear and change directions before the incoming fire lands. If its flying then it could quickly roll or yaw out of the way and thus get a dodge roll, but a tank or armored ground vehicle, at least in my mind, would only get a damage resistance roll and not a dodge roll, maybe a missile defense system roll if it has one.

[Psikerlord]

What's a good house rule for rocket fire then? Maybe half the usual scatter rules? (2d6 or 1d6 airburst?)

[Onion Man]

One of the few good things to come from D&D 4E, the advice on house rules.

1) What does this house rule add to the fun of the game?

2) What complexity does this add to the game?

If you can't answer both questions with a combined total of 2 sentences, with 0 commas, don't add your houserule, you're just going to make the game more complicated and less fun.

[DWC]

What's a good house rule for rocket fire then? Maybe half the usual scatter rules? (2d6 or 1d6 airburst?)

When in doubt, use the WAR! grenade launcher rule that turns them into normal ballistic weapons that roll to hit like any other ranged weapon, get staged up like a ranged weapon, and just do their base blast radius damage to things other than the primary target.