[hemgath]

Mhhh a little finding ?

Any one used rocket in SR4A? If you had a special mission and sure to meat some BiG Vehicle…
Find for exemple some Rocket AV and a little MAW…
Verry very hard to find…
But your best Johnson find you, your super AV rocket and a launcher…

Now an average test for our super rocket:
Rocket anti Vehicle:
Damage: 16P          
AP: −2 / −6 (on vehicle)    
Airburst: −4/m
Find: 20p
Price: 1000 ¥ for 1

The average of a Rocket Scatter = 4d6 (so medium half is 13)
With a Airburst link scatter = 2d6 (so average is 7).

Normal launch:
With 15 in Weapon skills + AG  you make an average 5 on dice test
So your average scatter: 13 -5 metter success : -8 metter
Your rocket arrive @ 8 metter from the vehicle and make a good 8x-4metter = 0 damage…

Airburst link launch:
With 15 in Weapon skills + AG  you make an average 5 on dice test
So your average scatter: 7  -5 metter success : -2 metter
Your rocket arrive @ 2 metter from the vehicle and make a 2x-4metter = 8p damage -6…

Specialist runner :
Airburst link launch:
With 21 in Weapon skills + AG  you make an average 7 on dice test
So your average scatter: 7  -7 metter success : PERFECT you shoot the tank
Your rocket arrive in the vehicle and make a 0x-4metter = 16p damage -6…

Now, I compare diferent weapon with an average Runner with 15 in his weapon skills+agi…

Some munitions easiest to find and really cheapest than a rocket AV…:
AV bullet:
Damage: -
AP: -4 / -6 (on vehicle)
Find: 18p
Price : 125 ¥ for

HMG:
5 success + 7p-3 (weapon damage) + 9 (full fire amo) = 21p -9

SMG:
5 success + 5p (weapon damage) + 9 (full fire amo) = 19p -6

A Machine pistol !!!:
5 success + 4p (weapon damage) + 9 (full fire amo) = 18p -6

Imagine with a specialist runner… and is 21 (or really more) weapon skills…


(I don’t make dogge comparaison because it’s really harder to expose… but you can easily imagine…).

A finding
Rocket is ridiculous and completely Useless…
So exept for extreme, extreme range… with a perfect skills… prefer lot of cheapest and efficient weapon… Like a simple Machine pistol with AV APDS…

[The_Gun_Nut]

First off, the SMG or machine pistol will just bounce rounds off the vehicle.  The burst fire damage bonus does NOT figure in to base damage when comparing to the vehicle's armor.  The net hit's do count (assuming the driver of the vehicle doesn't get any hits to dodge, for whatever reason), but with only 9 damage, even with AV rounds, the vehicle is likely to shrug off the SMG hits.  I'm assuming you aren't wasting AV rounds on a rinky-dink vehicle but a real armored threat.

Second, the rocket has a much greater range than the SMG or machine pistol:  A launcher's short range goes out to the SMG's Long range, and completely exceeds the machine pistol's range!  Thus, you can engage the vehicle from beyond the range of small arms and threaten it.

Third, unless you have sufficient recoil compensation, recoil will reduce the dice pool on the attack roll for the SMG and machine pistol by a tremendous amount.  While it is rare to put that much on a small arm, it is technically possible.

Lastly, vehicles are not single points in space.  They are large and take up a good chunk of real estate.  For example, a Bradley IFV is 7 meters long and 3 meters wide.  The firer can be off by a little bit and still nail the vehicle dead on.  So, factoring in the size of the vehicle with the reduction of scatter yields:

13-  5 - 3.5 = 4.5/5 meters OR 13 - 5 - 1.5 = 6.5/7 meters.  We won't consider the diagonals on this shot, just the easier to compute X and Y axis.

For the airburst:  7 - 5-3.5 =0 meters OR 7 - 5 - 1.5 = 0.5/1 meters.  This is a dead-on (or close to it) shot.

Battle tanks are even bigger.  The Abrams MBT is 9.7 meters by 3.7 meters.  Hitting that will be even easier, and the airburst will, on average, allow the firer to hit every time from three times the distance the SMG can reach, or six times the distance the machine pistol can reach.  And neither of those weapons can even scratch the tanks in question.

Would the small arms set up be great against lightly armored targets?  Absolutely.  In this case the rocket is overpriced.  Against real armor?  Ridiculous?  Useless?  Hardly.  Use the right tool for the job, and a machine pistol isn't it. 

[Chaemera]

You could nit-pick the issue of whether or not the damage code is modified by narrow burst before comparing armor as regards Long Bursts and Full Bursts. The explicit text on page 154 for these two leaves out the "is not included when comparing DV to Armor for P/S" caveat that the Short-Narrow Burst has on page 153. However, any good GM is going to recognize the omission as accidental, and I wouldn't be surprised if it shows up elsewhere in the text.

In case your hunting for it, hemgath, the rule Gun Nut is referencing regarding bullets bouncing right off is on page 167, "Vehicle Armor", last sentence. So that HMG with 5 successes (total ModDV=12) needs to be fired at a vehicle with armor no greater than 21, still a pretty decent effect, but then again, it's an HMG.

The SMG, again assuming 5 net hits (as Gun Nut says, what about the vehicle's dodge check?), it's useless once vehicle armor reaches 16, Machine Pistol drops out at 15. So, against unmodified SR4A vehicles (in other words, no Arsenal or War!), you want that AV Rocket the minute a GMC Beachcraft, Ares Citymaster, or GMC Banshee arrives on scene. Against the other vehicles, sure, an SMG or Machine Pistol could, with 5 net hits, be effective, if you want to get that close.

At least grab a sport rifle and stand off at a distance, they're not that expensive.

Open the door to Smart Armor from Arsenal and modify, say the GMC Bulldog Step-Van. Your GM is a prick, he gives the thing with Smart Armor 10 and Regular Armor 20 (GMC Bulldog has Body 16, so there's no acceleration / speed penalty). Now you're facing Armor 20*. On top of that, Armor penetration is reduced by 10 for the first 10 shots made against the vehicle. Now, none of these weapons seem effective. Against a modified delivery van, of all things. However, there's a catch, any weapon with DV=<10, the Smart Armor's effectiveness is potentially reduced, the only such weapon on your list is the AV Rocket. See page 132-133 of Arsenal for details.

* Some GM's will argue that Smart Armor adds to the base armor rating for a total Armor of 30, but to me, that's game breaking. The rules are quiet on whether or not it adds in, so I side with it only giving an anti-AP quality. This a house rule/rule interpretation on my part, so insert 30 above, if that's your preference.

[Dead Monky]

LAW rockets (Arsenal) are actually pretty damn cheap.  750 nuyen if memory serves.  In my group, the weapon specialist carries a LAW rocket with her almost every time there's a run.  "Just in case."  And it's come in handy more times than I can remember.  Drones, CorpSec armored cars, police cars, SWAT vans, all have fallen beneath the might of her rockets.

EDIT
Fixed typos.

[Bradd]

@Chaemera: The Ranged Combat Summary table on p. 150, SR4A, has this note: "*Autofire does not count when comparing the modified DV to the modified Armor." Wide bursts are more helpful for armor penetration, as they generally increase net hits (presumably by making it more likely that some of your ammo finds a weak point in the armor).

[The_Gun_Nut]

Before someone asks, cause I'm sure someone is curious, it's because wide bursts reduce the targets defense pool.  Fewer dice means fewer chances to dodge.

[Chaemera]

@Chaemera: The Ranged Combat Summary table on p. 150, SR4A, has this note: "*Autofire does not count when comparing the modified DV to the modified Armor." Wide bursts are more helpful for armor penetration, as they generally increase net hits (presumably by making it more likely that some of your ammo finds a weak point in the armor).

Excellent, I was sure this one was in there somewhere, thanks, Bradd.

[Kontact]

If you're looking to shoot a tank with a missile, it would make good sense to use edge on the test.

Your middling DP 15 heavy gunner (Skill 3, Agl 7, 2 from smartlink, 3 from take aim actions) can pull ~8 hits with an edge reroll.
With good positioning (e.g. firing from above the target, like IRL,) as GN points out, a few meters left or right won't miss a target that big.

[The_Gun_Nut]

For that matter, trolls block LOS.

Trust me.

[JoeNapalm]

Apologies for the zombie thread, but we just ran across this in game for the first time.

Anti-Vehicle rockets are, because of scatter, effectively useless.

An average, trained guy with an AV rocket simply cannot hit what he shoots at.

You're better off if they actually shot at you, because you can't be hurt...if they shoot at someone else, you could be in danger.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Charybdis]

Apologies for the zombie thread, but we just ran across this in game for the first time.

Anti-Vehicle rockets are, because of scatter, effectively useless.

An average, trained guy with an AV rocket simply cannot hit what he shoots at.

You're better off if they actually shot at you, because you can't be hurt...if they shoot at someone else, you could be in danger.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

Errr, did you read the thread? They just crunched the numbers to show it's actually average-to-easy to make the vehicle go Ka-blooie...

In our game, we've used RPG's a couple of times and watched everything short of a rigger-jumped vehicle get cinematically blown sky-high. No tanks yet...but still!

What happened with your guys?

[JoeNapalm]

Yeah, but..well, I got lazy.

My main issue is with scatter. I'll address it in the Rules forum where it belongs.

-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Stahlseele]

Scatter should be 1D6 for each Range-Category. For unguided projectiles at least.

[CanRay]

And for guided ones?  Makes me think wire-guided missiles might be a better option.

[Deliverator]

Personally I would prefer a post-modern equivalent of the javalin missile system. WIN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGM-148_Javelin