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"Only one Shadow Amp can affect a rollís outcome" what is that really mean?

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Jimmy_Pvish

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« on: (23:08:55/10-05-16) »
p38 "Only one Shadow Amp can affect a rollís outcome; if two or more could apply to the Test, you must choose one effect to apply"

If I have

Cybereye 1 (amp2)
- Ignore vision modifiers

Cyberarms 3 (amp4)
-  may reroll 3 dice on AGI-relate roll

Skill wires 3 (amp4)
- add 3 dice to Firearms rolls

I have AGI 5 and Firearm 4
When I use firearms skill to shoot enemy at poor vision condition (let's say it's -4 dice), what is my dice?

1. can choose only 1 amp to effect my dice, so
    If choose Cybereye 1, AGI 5 + Firearm 4 = 9 dice
    If choose Cyberarms 3, AGI 5 + Firearm 4 - poor vision 4 = 5 dice and can reroll 3 dice
    If choose Skill wires 3, AGI 5 + Firearms 4 + Skill wires 3 - poor vision 4 = 8 dice

2. can use all 3 amp, because "Only one Shadow Amp can affect a rollís outcome" is mean different amp that do the same things (ex Bioware arm and Cyberarms)
    So, AGI 5 + Firearms 4 + Skill wires 3 = 12 dice and can reroll 3 dice

Which one is correct?

Opti

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Gingivitis

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« Reply #2 on: (03:44:04/10-06-16) »
I got the exact opposite from that passage:

pg. 38. "Make sure to apply a relevant effect before comparing hits with the opposing dice. Only one Shadow Amp can affect a rollís outcome; if two or more could apply to the Test, you must choose one effect to  apply."

Those effects are things, "such as allowing the reroll of dice that failed to score a hit or reducing the number of opposing dice rolled, negating hits, adding pips to dice (that is, making the roll one number  higher), and so on."

The only exception I found (which kind of reinforces the rule) is for Datajacks and Control Rigs, "Accessing the Matrix via AR does not confer any bonuses, but going full VR confers a +1 bonus to any  Hacking Tests. This bonus is noted on Shadow Amps that allow VR connection, such as datajacks and trodes, and it always applies in VR, even if another Amp is used to affect a Test while in VR."

Of course, anyone can play this anyway that they want.  The group gets to decide all that. so... meh?
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Sendaz

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« Reply #3 on: (06:38:05/10-06-16) »
Even though the language of the writing seems to go with option 1 for expediency, I would still go with Opti on option 2 for this, because otherwise it seriously undermines having shiny things and makes for strange story telling. 

Yes, you have cybereyes, cyberarms and skillwires, but your power cells can only power one of your cybersystems at a time so choose wisely. :P
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SoulGambit

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« Reply #4 on: (07:38:40/10-06-16) »
I'd say "ignore vision modifiers" and modifying the dicepool are sufficiently different. That said, nothing stops you from having "Cyberware Suite" and piling all the bonuses on to one cyberware. In fact, at creation, its cheaper to do that.

Honestly though, amps arent even closed to balanced. It treats rerolling failed dice as equal to bonus dice as equal to forcing the opponent to reroll successes as all being equal.
« Last Edit: (07:52:39/10-06-16) by SoulGambit »

Carmody

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« Reply #5 on: (09:43:53/10-06-16) »
Well, rerolling failed dice and extra dice is equal provided you have at least as many failed dice as extra dice.
Which means that for the higher bonus, it is equal if you have at least 3 failed dice

Rip Cord

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« Reply #6 on: (12:12:06/10-06-16) »
Hint for anyone that doesn't know Opti wrote part of the book. Trust him.

Carmody

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« Reply #7 on: (13:44:08/10-06-16) »
Hint for anyone that doesn't know Opti wrote part of the book. Trust him.
Oh! good to know :-)

Opti then, can you clarify the intend, what is not supposed to stack, twice the very same effect?

Hobbes

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« Reply #8 on: (14:59:13/10-06-16) »
I'd also like clarification on the intent of putting Agility Re-rolls in Cyber/Bio Arms.  More Dice (or Re-rolls) on Agility would potentially be one of the most efficient Amps as so many rolls are from Agility.  Is it intended to put some Narrative constraints on Agility Amps, or was it just coincidence?

For clarification, Cyber-arms re-roll Agility test, but it's difficult to justify some Agility tests as being "Arms".  Sneaking for example.  Defense Tests possibly.  Most Athletics tests.

Just wondering on the intent. 

Gingivitis

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« Reply #9 on: (05:04:19/10-07-16) »
After thinking about it and playing the game, I have adjusted my stance on this.  I thought that "only one Shadow Amp can affect a rollís outcome" was a game balance thing, to stop munchkins, etc.  But now I think it might be an... editing oversight?  Combined with, "if two or more could apply to the Test, you must choose one effect to apply," it seems pretty clear you get 1 shadow amp per roll (your choice) except for 4 things:

1) Opti's curt clarification (above).
2) p. 90 Chrome Bison has both DERMAL PLATING 2 (Reduce damage taken by 2. Ė1 Essence) and ALUMINUM BONE LACING 2 (Reduce damage taken by 2. Ė1 Essence) which have the same exact mechanic.  Spending 6 Shadow Amps on these if they do not stack would be ridiculous.
3) From actual game play, it is much more fluid if you do NOT have to choose one SA over another.  Trying to figure out what would be better in any given situation would be far more disruptive to game play than just adding dice AND re-rolling failures.
4) Custom cyberware and combining effects into one SA trivializes this "only one SA" rule anyways.

Skip it, move on, and make a great story.
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Sendaz

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« Reply #10 on: (07:03:36/10-07-16) »
Yeah, these needs some clarification. 

In the OP the various amps don't really overlap so it would seem justifiable to allow multiple amps to be used so long as they were different effects.
So many are thinking that maybe the rule meant  if two or more Amp of the same effect could apply, only apply one.

However Gingivitis shows the example of Chrome Bison (pg 90) where there are two Amps whose effects do overlap (they both do a flat damage reduction) so this just muddies the waters because they share the same effect and if they can stack, why was the rule even there in the first place or was this not meant to be there at all?

*chuckles*  Overall do like the look of it though still so just a wee bit of tweaking and we should be good to go.
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Opti

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« Reply #11 on: (08:55:34/10-07-16) »
I didn't mean to be dismissive or curt earlier. Just saw it on my way to something else and thought I'd chime in. Note Chrome Bison has two amps that do the same thing, but they don't affect a rolls outcome, like the rule states.

Hobbes

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« Reply #12 on: (14:25:05/10-07-16) »
I didn't mean to be dismissive or curt earlier. Just saw it on my way to something else and thought I'd chime in. Note Chrome Bison has two amps that do the same thing, but they don't affect a rolls outcome, like the rule states.

Thanks for stopping by! 

That is a very fine distinction you're making, and it's not the conclusion I (or others) drew from the general rule of "Only one Shadow Amp..." 

Personally I think the system is much cleaner if you stick with the no Stacking at all, ever.

Opti

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« Reply #13 on: (21:11:05/10-07-16) »
Of course, every table is within their rights to read and play whatever rules they see as RAW or change them. I don't think it was ever intended that more than 1 amp could not give DIFFERENT bonuses to a roll. I guess I would say that for example, you could have 1 amp, say a cyberarm, upgraded to give 4 different types of bonus to a roll (reroll, + damage, increase range, and ignore visual mods), or you could have a cyberarm, cyberleg, cybereye, and cybertorso that give the same bonuses with 4 different amps. There was no intention of favoring overloading 1 amp with a bunch of different mods over 4 amps. It is a flavor distinction. Stacking the same bonus will quickly get out of hand in a way the other bonuses won't, especially in a narrative game.

Does that make sense?

Jimmy_Pvish

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« Reply #14 on: (05:11:03/10-08-16) »
Thanks for the answer everyone

Another thing

What is the correct essence cost for bioware/cyberware?

in the book say cyberarms (reroll 1 dice)  is -1.0 essence.
So, cyberarms 2 (reroll 2 dice) will cost -2.0 essence?