[Fabe]

Well in the case of control rigs I'm going with Aaron said in another thread. you use you physical attributes since the whole point of the control rig is to allow you to control a vehicle as if it were your  physical body.

[ClaytonCross]

Well in the case of control rigs I'm going with Aaron said in another thread. you use you physical attributes since the whole point of the control rig is to allow you to control a vehicle as if it were your  physical body.

Err... that makes no since. "whole point of the control rig is to allow you to control a vehicle as if it were your  physical body." does not = use your physical body but in replacement of your physical body. With this logic you would use the stats of the vehicle or drone instead of your body. Technomancers do the same thing and they replace all physical stats with mental pairs. In that a case logic replaces agility anyway.... so again you would use logic by that rule. Your body is limp and its agility pointless in the matrix. Physically fit players get there but handed to them when using matrix actions versus the mentally strong nerds. 

It could be me, but it seems like your really reaching so you can make a high agility gunner/marksman and that is not the case. Logic is the "RC" turret control and gamers are the best remote gunners with there halo controllers out shooting your Rambo types. That is the intent of a drone combat. Nerd weapons in the real world.

[belaran]

Hi guys,

I'm sorry I forgot to click on notify so I was not aware so many answers came in. First of all, thanks for your sharing your thoughts, it really helped me.

So to recap:

Question 1) is - does the +2d for matrix action applies ? Technically, it's NOT a matrix action, but it could be argued he should get the bonus "in exchange" of this being a complex action...

Yes, it does because any Pilot/Firing actions while Jumped is a Matrix Action.

Question 2) is - does is control rig bonus applies to the limit - thus making the test (Gunnery + Logic) [Accuracy + Control Rig Level].

Yes, it does.

Question 3): in the rule it states that the control rig adds its level to all the vehicule limits, but I've also heard in the Critical Glitch Podcast that it adds its level to the dice pool, but I could not find that in the core rulebook (1st printing). Can you either confirm or infirm this ?

It was confirmed, and it is stated in the Control Rig augmentation description (but not reminded in the Rigger chapter):

"When you’re jumped into a vehicle or drone, the control rig provides its Rating as a dice pool bonus on all Vehicle skill tests. Additionally, the rating of your control rig is added to the Handling and Speed of any vehicle you are jumped into. As if that was not enough, your Vehicle Test thresholds are reduced by the rating of your control rig (to a minimum of 1), again when you’re jumped in."

And the last line is also a nice discovery for my rigger player !!!

Thanks all !

[Fabe]

I guess I was a bit unclear, I would still use logic/gunnery even when jumped in but would use reaction/pilot for driving not logic. the control rig is re-routing nerve singles to the vehicle with handling/acceleration acting as the limits while with normal VR its just reading you thoughts like  those mind controlled toys they have now a days. 

control rig -you just do without having to activity ,consciously thinking about just like you don't have to activity think about walking. you just walk

VR,- you activity have to think about what you want to do. real world example is the star wars force trainer toy, you activity  have to concentrate on powering the fan to lift the ball.

[belaran]

I guess I was a bit unclear, I would still use logic/gunnery even when jumped in but would use reaction/pilot for driving not logic.

No worries, Fabe, this was never a question of mine, (Pilot + Reaction) for Driving. My only question was regarding what to use (and if the +2d bonuses applied to it) when firing a weapon while jumped into the weapon's vehicule.

[ClaytonCross]

@Fabe
Rigger jumped in (Pilot + Reaction) for Driving, yep I agree.

@belaran
"My only question was regarding what to use (and if the +2d bonuses applied to it) when firing a weapon while jumped into the weapon's vehicle."

This is unfortunately a big arguing point, so I am just going to state the points and you will have to get a GM call.
1. Gunnery is a matrix action while jumped
2. Hot-sim provides +2 to matrix actions pool while jumped in
3. The description of the Rig says it provides +1 to matrix actions while in hot-sim
So the arguments are:
A.The hardware hot-sim bonus is a more specific rule for then normal hot-sim bonus. (you only get +1hotsim)
B.The hardware hot-sim bonus and the standard bonus are separate bonuses and stack. (you get +3 hotsim)
C. The hardware bonus is a typo, because the book is badly edited and organized. Same matrix, same bonus (+2)

There is no errata or "official" clarification. Some of the moderators on the forum have stated it is B. That however is not official. Most people say A makes hot-sim pointless and B makes hot-sim riggers better then hot-sim deckers. So we wait for Rigger5.0 errata and hope they clarify. That is the most honest clear answer I can provide.

My opinion if you care is B, but I play a rigger and decker or GM might disagree.

[belaran]

IMHO, I will go for B also because it will make my player happy, and also simplify calculation (everything stacks Matrix Action Bonuses and Control Rig Rating - I assume this is the +1 your a talking about).

I don't think there was a clarification about in Rigger 5.0, but I'm not a big fan of crunch (thus my asking on the forum about it often).

[Fabe]

 I think I would say b as well,the +3hot sim bonus doesn't really give riggers a edge  over deckers since deckers can do so much more in the matrix while what riggers do mostly happens in meat space.

[Kiirnodel]

This is unfortunately a big arguing point, so I am just going to state the points and you will have to get a GM call.
1. Gunnery is a matrix action while jumped
2. Hot-sim provides +2 to matrix actions pool while jumped in
3. The description of the Rig says it provides +1 to matrix actions while in hot-sim
So the arguments are:
A.The hardware hot-sim bonus is a more specific rule for then normal hot-sim bonus. (you only get +1hotsim)
B.The hardware hot-sim bonus and the standard bonus are separate bonuses and stack. (you get +3 hotsim)
C. The hardware bonus is a typo, because the book is badly edited and organized. Same matrix, same bonus (+2)

There is no errata or "official" clarification. Some of the moderators on the forum have stated it is B. That however is not official. Most people say A makes hot-sim pointless and B makes hot-sim riggers better then hot-sim deckers. So we wait for Rigger5.0 errata and hope they clarify. That is the most honest clear answer I can provide.

My opinion if you care is B, but I play a rigger and decker or GM might disagree.

You have an error in your (3) and it is three-fold.
3a) Description of Control Rig gives the bonus as its rating
3b) Bonus is to all vehicle skill tests, not matrix actions (although vehicle tests are matrix actions while jumped in)
3c) Bonus is while jumped in, not while hot-sim (but you can be hot-sim while jumped in)

So it really works out like this:
1) Vehicle tests are Matrix actions while Jumped in
2) Hot-sim gives +2 bonus on Matrix actions
3) Control rig gives +1 per rating while jumped in.

Since 2 and 3 are not mutually inclusive or exclusive the bonuses cannot be assumed (in any way) to be the same bonus. You can perform vehicle actions through the matrix while not jumped in (Remote Control), and if you are hot-sim you get a +2. Likewise, you can use a Control Rig and jump into a vehicle and get the bonus from the control rig on all vehicle tests, and if you are hot-sim you get an extra +2. The text in the two separate sections don't really overlap the way you make it sound like they would. They don't have similar phrasing and as I pointed out, they don't even apply in the same circumstances.

There are quite a few bonuses for using a control rig (See page 452), but in exchange, you take damage to the vehicle as biofeedback. Likewise, there are a few bonuses for using hot-sim (See page 230), but in exchange you take bio-feedback as Physical damage instead of Stun.

	Remote Control	Jumped In
Cold-Sim	No bonus	+1 per Rating
Hot-Sim	+2 dice	Both bonuses

[adzling]

Awesome post

[Fabe]

 If Kiirnodel's last post doesn't clear things up  then nothing will.

[belaran]

+1

[ClaytonCross]

@Kiirnodel
Sorry the confusion point is not on the Hardware but between the Rigging section SR5 p266

VR and Rigging
When you’re jumped into a vehicle or other device, you’re in Virtual Reality mode. The control rig allows you to treat Vehicle actions the same way you treat Matrix actions, so any bonus you get to Matrix actions also apply to Vehicle actions when you’re jumped in; this includes Vehicle Control Tests, Gunnery Tests, and Sensor Tests.

Just like in the Matrix, you have the option of using cold-sim or hot-sim while rigging. If you’re using coldsim, you get +2D6 to your Initiative (3D6 total), and any biofeedback damage you take is Stun. If you’re using hot-sim, you get +3D6 (4D6 total) Initiative dice, and a +1 dice pool bonus that applies to all Matrix test (including Vehicle actions), but all biofeedback damage is Physical damage.

... and the matrix section on hot-sim SR5 p230

When you are in hot-sim VR mode, you use your Data Processing + Intuition as your Initiative and you get +4D6 Initiative Dice (remember that any enhancements or bonuses cannot take you past the maximum of 5D6 Initiative Dice). You receive a +2 dice pool bonus to all Matrix actions, and you take biofeedback damage as Physical damage.[/b]

So...
1. vehicle actions are treated like matrix actions and all matrix bonuses apply
2. hot-sim while rigging gives +1 dice pool bonus
3. Matrix hot-sim bonus +2

A. number 2 is more specific than 3... rigger hot-sim bonus is 1
B. these are different bonuses as Forum Freelancer Aaron said in another post and cumulatively = +3
C. The +1 listed above is a typo and its talking about the same bonus (which is +2)

So while your post is great, these are direct quotes from the book. I just want official clarification. My prior post was written during my lunch at work and I did not have the page numbers or access to the PDF to copy. Sorry for that and hope this clears up the question.

As far as I can see its the same result as my question before but this time supported with the correct references.

[ClaytonCross]

If Kiirnodel's last post doesn't clear things up  then nothing will.

Just wishing for errata. 

[Medicineman]

>>>>Just wishing for errata.

There was a German Singer in the 80's that I really adored when I way a young child (now I'm an old Child )
Wolf Maahn and one of his more famous Songs was : die Sucht der Träumer ( the Addiction of Dreamers)
 and one of his Lines was:
Unsere Träume sind nie gefeit
gegen eine Überdosis Wirklichkeit !
 ( = Our Dreams ain't never Immune
to an overdose of Reality !)
I made that to one of my Life's credos
( and It is Soooooo fitting für the SR Situation)

He who dances to the Folk Rock of Wolf Maahn
Medicineman