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Howling Shadows [Animal Price Guide] (Or you lose my support).

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Finstersang

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« Reply #30 on: (12:17:48/06-09-16) »
The critter handbook is not just the SR Version of DnDīs Monster Manual, and since there are rules for price modifikations in it, it oviously wasnīt intended this way, either.  Itīs hard to understand how something so important could have been forgotten, let alone omitted as a design choice.

Itīs not that we need prices for every critter in the book. Of course thereīs no market for meistersingers.
But for dogs, cats, horses? Also, if some of the paracritters like hellhounds, barghests and the like are bred and sold as security options, that sounds like a pretty damn market to me.

There are new (and well done!) rules for training and equipping pets. There are old rules for bonding with animals. Thatīs all for naught if thereīs no way to obtain them. At both my tables, players have been asking for the prices for mundane and awakened pets as well. I staved them off for the day when the new critter book will come out and provides rules (which we got) and prices.

If it is possible to cobble together prices, availabilities and lifestyle costs for the most important kind oft pets in less than 2 hours, then why not do it via an official Errata? And if, for the reasons Patrick explained, thereīs more to it, isnīt that even more of a reason to include these informations in the book instead of shoving that part back to the GMs to houserule it?
   

Medicineman

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« Reply #31 on: (12:44:31/06-09-16) »
>>> If it is possible to cobble together prices, availabilities and lifestyle costs for the most important kind oft pets in less than 2 hours, then why not do it via an official Errata?

it could be done in 10 Minutes by taking the already existing list from Running Wild.

 According to Mr.Hardy there will be a List (a tiny List of only 10 Animals) but it's going to take a while 
( but I WILL use the complete List from Running Wild)
 
 

with a 10 Minute Dance
Medicineman
« Last Edit: (12:51:53/06-09-16) by Medicineman »
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
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MijRai

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« Reply #32 on: (13:15:57/06-09-16) »
I'd suggest changing those prices a bit, Medicineman; Running Wild didn't seem to understand the value of high quality, endangered horses, for example (pegasi are ridiculously cheap, in other words). 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Medicineman

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« Reply #33 on: (13:32:09/06-09-16) »
I'd suggest changing those prices a bit, Medicineman; Running Wild didn't seem to understand the value of high quality, endangered horses, for example (pegasi are ridiculously cheap, in other words).

Thanks for the Advice
When the Time comes both I and my GM will check the List and change it if necessary
But ,to Hardy's delight, I/ we will also do what he wants us to do, steal  big Animals and make a Run to obtain the rarer Animals
But If one of my Chars needs a Horse,Dog or a Cat for Fluff, we will stick to the former Ed's Table to keep it simple

with a simpler Dance
Medicineman
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
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MijRai

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« Reply #34 on: (13:41:26/06-09-16) »
That's where you stick it to the man by stealing extra animals and sell them for a profit. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Medicineman

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« Reply #35 on: (13:54:53/06-09-16) »
Well, sometimes a Runner's got to do what a Runner's got to do. ;) :D
in the german Running Wild Pegasus added a few Pages to include the (famous ) Hagenbeck Zoo.
I never got a Chance to use that in SR4A, maybe I'll persuade one of my two SR5 GMs to use the Material...?

With a Dance in the Zoo
Medicineman
http://english.bouletcorp.com/2013/08/02/the-long-journey/
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bangbangtequila

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« Reply #36 on: (23:12:26/06-10-16) »
Please do not judge the freelancers on this. Asking them to "whip up a table" is unreasonable no matter how little effort or time it would take. You are asking them to do their job, from which they derive their living, for free. That is bad business, and it is wildly unreasonable to put them in a position where they need to refuse day after day.

The issue is that Catalyst is not paying a writer to do the errata, and they are not doing that because at this point, it would not generate any additional revenue, and they no longer need to satisfy the customers asking for it as they have already invested as much money into the product as they can by purchasing it. I am not justifying this behaviour, as we can reasonably assume this will result in some lost customers, but I reserve my judgement on the matter because they certainly have someone with more expertise than me analyzing these matters and the cost/benefit projections and determining it costs more to pay for erratas than it does to simply ignore them.

At any rate, I sympathise that the book does not provide what you were hoping. I share your disappointment that the erratas have seemingly stopped forever, and I feel particularly betrayed at the various promises of upcoming erratas only to find that they go unfulfilled month after month. It seems that you cannot expect the support that you hope for, and, quite frankly, deserve.

Dinendae

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« Reply #37 on: (23:24:13/06-10-16) »

The issue is that Catalyst is not paying a writer to do the errata,


I'm going to snip that little bit out of the quote, because people seem to keep forgetting to make a distinction between Catalyst and the freelancers (who don't have a lot of control once items are turned in). I've seen the writers take a lot of flak since the launch of SR5, but the point of failure seems to be up above them. I've lost count of the number of posts where a writer stated they had something a certain way, and it got changed after they sent their work in. Sure the writers make mistakes, they're human after all, but the major problems seem to be coming from higher up. Everyone needs to keep that in mind when frustration sets in.


*Edited to fix stupid auto-"correct."  >:( *
« Last Edit: (23:30:02/06-10-16) by Dinendae »

BrysenBlue

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« Reply #38 on: (08:25:27/06-12-16) »
Please do not judge the freelancers on this. Asking them to "whip up a table" is unreasonable no matter how little effort or time it would take. You are asking them to do their job, from which they derive their living, for free. That is bad business, and it is wildly unreasonable to put them in a position where they need to refuse day after day.

The issue is that Catalyst is not paying a writer to do the errata, and they are not doing that because at this point, it would not generate any additional revenue, and they no longer need to satisfy the customers asking for it as they have already invested as much money into the product as they can by purchasing it. I am not justifying this behavior, as we can reasonably assume this will result in some lost customers, but I reserve my judgement on the matter because they certainly have someone with more expertise than me analyzing these matters and the cost/benefit projections and determining it costs more to pay for erratas than it does to simply ignore them.

At any rate, I sympathize that the book does not provide what you were hoping. I share your disappointment that the erratas have seemingly stopped forever, and I feel particularly betrayed at the various promises of upcoming erratas only to find that they go unfulfilled month after month. It seems that you cannot expect the support that you hope for, and, quite frankly, deserve.

I have not had any problem with any of the other books we own, not really. However, Howling Shadows is a big disappointment. The writer did not give us physical descriptions for a lot of the meta-critters (and I cannot emphasize how much that has been a pain in the ass) and the minimal art means that we are forced to go back to earlier editions to get a glimpse of what is what.

It has been a running gag in my group that half the players have the Predigest Quality against Gnomes for no good damn reason. I personally would mock this but my character is running alongside four other people who hate Gnome-kind and want them eradicated from the planet. All for their own reasons. Now, when I saw G-Nome in the book I knew that would be a talking point for my group. And I personally thought the name G-Nome was incredibly witty. However, after reading the book and what he has to say at length I have decided that I have more love for Clockwork than G-Nome.

He is extremely pretentious and talks about all the critters in the book like they are poor benevolent creatures. Like, he does not recognize that nature is a viscous and unforgiving thing. It is kill or be killed. He sounds like someone out of the 1960's Doctor Dolittle film and I do not like that he is our primary source of information -- especially since he does not even tell me what the Merrow are awakened from or what they freaking look-like.

The writer behind the book either did it intentionally (to make an insufferable know-it all Gnome EVO-hipster) or it was poorly thought out. I love nature and the environment. I love a lot of the ideas in the book but I do not like how they are presented to the reader, in many places it is assumed you already know a lot of this stuff and it lacks the natural charm of a lot of the earlier critter books.

There is an old conversation discussing the Juggernaut's fear aura, and runners not being 100% certain if it was a critter power or if its just natural for people to be scared of something that large. That will stay with me forever, but Howling Shadows has nothing like that in it. Instead, the Juggernaut's critter description talks about its digestive system and treats it like this poor misunderstood beast.  There's no talk about the aftermath or the danger, its almost like it is trying to justify its destructive behavior.

But the missing table is the real crime, everything else I can forgive as artistic taste. But the missing table is what has upset me. There is a lot in the book that will be useful and fun and it was neat finding out that they worked out how to cyber up animals without driving them nuts (finally). I mean, who doesn't want a cool cybered horse?

But I'm sorry to say, if G-Nome comes near Boston he's toast. Brysen Blue will look the other way and team disappear him. I'll keep them in check for gnomes I don't know because I'm staunchly opposed to their extinction agenda, but G-Nome bugged me and as far as I am concerned he no longer has a place in the gene pool.

EDIT: After talking it through with one of the other players, it appears we will be going to him. Does anyone have any "canonical" information on G-Nome before we make him dead?  Is this the first time he's posted any data online?
« Last Edit: (08:44:41/06-12-16) by BrysenBlue »

Critias

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« Reply #39 on: (20:27:58/06-12-16) »
It has been a running gag in my group that half the players have the Predigest Quality against Gnomes for no good damn reason. I personally would mock this but my character is running alongside four other people who hate Gnome-kind and want them eradicated from the planet. All for their own reasons. Now, when I saw G-Nome in the book I knew that would be a talking point for my group. And I personally thought the name G-Nome was incredibly witty. However, after reading the book and what he has to say at length I have decided that I have more love for Clockwork than G-Nome.

He is extremely pretentious and talks about all the critters in the book like they are poor benevolent creatures. Like, he does not recognize that nature is a viscous and unforgiving thing. It is kill or be killed. He sounds like someone out of the 1960's Doctor Dolittle film and I do not like that he is our primary source of information -- especially since he does not even tell me what the Merrow are awakened from or what they freaking look-like.

The writer behind the book either did it intentionally (to make an insufferable know-it all Gnome EVO-hipster) or it was poorly thought out. I love nature and the environment. I love a lot of the ideas in the book but I do not like how they are presented to the reader, in many places it is assumed you already know a lot of this stuff and it lacks the natural charm of a lot of the earlier critter books.

There is an old conversation discussing the Juggernaut's fear aura, and runners not being 100% certain if it was a critter power or if its just natural for people to be scared of something that large. That will stay with me forever, but Howling Shadows has nothing like that in it. Instead, the Juggernaut's critter description talks about its digestive system and treats it like this poor misunderstood beast.  There's no talk about the aftermath or the danger, its almost like it is trying to justify its destructive behavior.

But the missing table is the real crime, everything else I can forgive as artistic taste. But the missing table is what has upset me. There is a lot in the book that will be useful and fun and it was neat finding out that they worked out how to cyber up animals without driving them nuts (finally). I mean, who doesn't want a cool cybered horse?

But I'm sorry to say, if G-Nome comes near Boston he's toast. Brysen Blue will look the other way and team disappear him. I'll keep them in check for gnomes I don't know because I'm staunchly opposed to their extinction agenda, but G-Nome bugged me and as far as I am concerned he no longer has a place in the gene pool.

EDIT: After talking it through with one of the other players, it appears we will be going to him. Does anyone have any "canonical" information on G-Nome before we make him dead?  Is this the first time he's posted any data online?
I feel like basically none of this part has anything to do with errata or super serious discussions about super serious business problems (or whatever else this thread is meant to cover).  You'd likely be better served asking this sort of thing -- about the in-game stuff -- in a different thread, where folks are looking to just discuss the product and help with your game in a more fun, less meta, way.

firebug

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« Reply #40 on: (22:57:42/06-12-16) »
Hmm...  A player of mine wants to make an adept, making use of the animal related stuff.

But the question is...  Without a price guide, how am I to know what's something his character could have?

I know that what kind of animal he'd have would be different than "what animals can a person purchase", but it's like how your character's starting gear isn't specifically all stuff they personally purchased with their own money.  Upgrades from sponsors, military upgrades, etc etc.  Hence why purchases still need justification.

Without an availability/price listing I'm not sure what animals my player could start with.  Cats and dogs?  Sure, of course.  A snake?  You could probably have found one...  Okay, what about a hellhound?  Well, they're not unheard of in the shadows...  But could I just have his character have one without paying anything for it?  What about something like a cougar?  Certainly not in Seattle, but what about if he's a Native in the NAN, where such an animal could be encountered if one traveled in the right places in his past?  Or if he found and trained (he is an Adept after all) a Bandit in the city?

I feel like the designers would say "if it's appropriate to the story, you can just give the player one".  But why free?  That's not fair.  Players need to spend contact points even if their story includes characters they know; they need pay for a cyberarm even if their backstory is "and in military training I lost an arm, but they gave me one" and the like.  A player can't be Awakened for free just because they have a backstory that says about how they learned magic.

Sadly it...  Isn't nice and narrative-only as Jason wants it to be.  I'm sorry it's not how you want a critter book to be; it's how it needs to be.

I'm Madpath Moth on reddit (and other sites).  Feel free to PM me errata questions!
Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

BrysenBlue

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« Reply #41 on: (05:16:22/06-14-16) »
I feel like basically none of this part has anything to do with errata or super serious discussions about super serious business problems (or whatever else this thread is meant to cover).  You'd likely be better served asking this sort of thing -- about the in-game stuff -- in a different thread, where folks are looking to just discuss the product and help with your game in a more fun, less meta, way.

You're not wrong, it was just a random passing thought. That said, you have two pages of super serious stuff and this is what you respond to?  C'mon man! lol

For the record though, I don't think this is "super serious" I just wanted my stance clear so I wrote frankly. I mean, its a little thing but since we're "complaining" about "serious" stuff... Howling Shadows didn't have a Jackpoint Login Screen page. So we spent an hour yesterday trawling over the whole book to figure out where the "data" from Howling Shadows was posted "online."

Ironically, its cleared up early on by the first post from Bull in the book but there is no log-in screen like in any of the other books. Its a little detail, but it should probably be included since its been a long standing tradition.

Hmm...  A player of mine wants to make an adept, making use of the animal related stuff.

But the question is...  Without a price guide, how am I to know what's something his character could have?

I know that what kind of animal he'd have would be different than "what animals can a person purchase", but it's like how your character's starting gear isn't specifically all stuff they personally purchased with their own money.  Upgrades from sponsors, military upgrades, etc etc.  Hence why purchases still need justification.

Without an availability/price listing I'm not sure what animals my player could start with.  Cats and dogs?  Sure, of course.  A snake?  You could probably have found one...  Okay, what about a hellhound?  Well, they're not unheard of in the shadows...  But could I just have his character have one without paying anything for it?  What about something like a cougar?  Certainly not in Seattle, but what about if he's a Native in the NAN, where such an animal could be encountered if one traveled in the right places in his past?  Or if he found and trained (he is an Adept after all) a Bandit in the city?

I feel like the designers would say "if it's appropriate to the story, you can just give the player one".  But why free?  That's not fair.  Players need to spend contact points even if their story includes characters they know; they need pay for a cyberarm even if their backstory is "and in military training I lost an arm, but they gave me one" and the like.  A player can't be Awakened for free just because they have a backstory that says about how they learned magic.

Sadly it...  Isn't nice and narrative-only as Jason wants it to be.  I'm sorry it's not how you want a critter book to be; it's how it needs to be.

This.

Critias

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« Reply #42 on: (18:32:46/06-14-16) »
I feel like basically none of this part has anything to do with errata or super serious discussions about super serious business problems (or whatever else this thread is meant to cover).  You'd likely be better served asking this sort of thing -- about the in-game stuff -- in a different thread, where folks are looking to just discuss the product and help with your game in a more fun, less meta, way.

You're not wrong, it was just a random passing thought.
Your "random passing thought" was like 85% of your post, and has nothing to do with errata, so I thought I'd gently steer you towards other sections of the forum, where maybe folks would be more likely to help.

Quote
That said, you have two pages of super serious stuff and this is what you respond to?  C'mon man! lol
I didn't work on Howling Shadows, and I'm not Jason or Randal or anybody higher-up in any position to address any of your concerns.  Sorry.  I don't comment on stuff I'm not in the right place to comment on.

BrysenBlue

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« Reply #43 on: (18:49:51/06-14-16) »
No sweat man. No sweat.