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Let's face it - official Erratas won't ever be released for SR again

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MijRai

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« Reply #30 on: (11:20:40/06-14-16) »
Eh, to address the points you've brought up, I can't say the quality is good when there's this sheer number of inconsistencies and errors.  The fiction is generally close to flawless, which is great...  But when it comes to basic grammar and editing concerns, it's a huge sink of suck.  Then there's the crunch/rules problems, which are almost as bad.  When I was writing and editing in a professional setting, I would have been reamed for the errors I've seen if it'd been submitted as a rough draft, much less sent to the final editor.  The atrocious editing so far is NOT to be expected given how much these books cost, and saying as much is basically giving them a free pass to do this poorly again and again.  I firmly believe almost every error in the books could have been solved if their editing process actually worked. 

Making bad 'design choices' is still a bad choice.  An error, if you will.  And if you believe it's all 'design choices' instead of flat-out being errors and someone lying through their teeth about what it really was to save face...  Well, I suggest looking at Howling Shadows for the answer to that.  Multiple reference to static price multipliers for buying various special things, but no actual price.  When people point that out, one guy goes 'dude, we totally meant to do that...  In a world where everything is for sale, you can't just go out and buy a dog or a fish, it has to be done organically, an entire 'run revolving around your desire for a pet, man...'  That is so blatantly false that next thing you know, they've said they're writing a basic animal price chart that is compatible with the cost multipliers they already released.  Given how late the Street Grimoire errata is going, I'm more inclined to think that announcement was just to appease us until we have something else to get our teeth into.  I definitely trust the version a freelancer said they'd work on over the possibility of an official one any day.  As far as the shifter thing goes, this is another blatant inconsistency, as in Vladivostok Gauntlet, the shifters both regenerate in the fluff and have the power in the mechanics at the back of the book. 

Twenty-eight months since the last errata update, last I checked. 

Honestly, I don't think a lack of communication is the worst thing nowadays.  I think the communication is worse.  Some people wouldn't be so angry about the lack of errata if they'd not announced some was supposed to be released two months ago (I'm not in that boat, that it's been years since any errata has been sent our way is ridiculous; I will still never Kickstart something again because of how Onyx Path handled Exalted 3rd Edition).  If Catalyst just shut up completely, they'd probably get less flak.  We'd learn to expect it and just go our own routes, rather than have a hope for anything 'official' (which sucks for people whose groups only go by the 'official' rules). 

While no-one will say where the process has gone wrong, a heaping pile of it lands on the editor regardless.  That person is the one who lets the product go past them to the public.  That is where the biggest problem lies.  Either they aren't doing their job for whatever reason (a possibility I think grows with every 'we meant to do that' comment) or they can't do their job for whatever reason (people above them pushing deadlines they can't keep up with, horrible direction by people who don't have a clue, lack of experience, etc.). 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

adzling

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« Reply #31 on: (11:34:43/06-14-16) »
the mendacity is obvious and totally transparent.

the lack of care is also obvious and pretty much on par and perhaps even more amazeballs.

AJCarrington

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« Reply #32 on: (13:14:52/06-14-16) »
Jason and team are aware of the concerns posted here (and elsewhere in the forums). Unfortunately, I don't have any further updates as to ETA of errata. At present the team is focused on upcoming products slated for GenCon (Shadowrun: Anarchy / Court of Shadows).

I appreciate that this isn't what people (myself included) are wanting to hear, but wanted to provide an update, based on the info I've got.

An aside, I believe they are hoping to have the SG reprint at Origins (this week), so we should be seeing updated PDFs at some point soon.


odd

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« Reply #33 on: (13:18:38/06-14-16) »
Thanks for the info AJ.  For me, I'd be ok with skipping court of shadows for errata ;)

MijRai

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« Reply #34 on: (14:07:43/06-14-16) »
I would like to say thanks for trying to keep us in the loop, AJ.  You've been doing pretty well at that, and it is appreciated. 

But their awareness really doesn't help if they don't act on it.  This whole Shadowrun: Anarchy thing honestly pisses me off at this point; instead of fixing the current rule-set, they've jumped to fiddling around with some Rules-Lite drek?  It's preposterous, and a part of why I've been rapidly losing faith in Catalyst.  I'm not even sure what an 'Alternate Setting' book for Shadowrun is supposed to be, which is why I'm not letting myself get overly bothered until I hear more.  If it's just a take from an alternate perspective/something that isn't usually covered, s'all good.  If it is some kind of alternate universe, not related to actual Shadowrun thing, that'll be a problem in my eyes as well. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

BrysenBlue

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« Reply #35 on: (16:48:42/06-14-16) »
Can someone explain what Shadowrun: Anarchy is please?

It sounds like an RPG without rules. If this is the case, I should really point out that is not a good investment for anyone. The purpose of "rules" is to handle possible disputes. You can never cover every rule (nor should you try) but going "rules-lite" is not the solution. People can already play rules-lite without buying a product. Hell, they can play rules-lite with the books they have.

Despite what people might think, Shadowrun 5e is not a complicated system. Its easy to understand and simple enough for pick up and play while also allowing heavy customization to make your character unique. This is a strength and if the people behind this really think ignoring that to focus on fiction and rules-lite elseworld books they are going to be in for a sore mistake.

Addressing the actual problems. I know I'm not very popular already, but I've not really had much of a hassle with anything in the rules prior. We have been playing regularly (one day a week) for over a year. And the first time we really ran into a problem was with Howling Shadows not including a cost modifier. I could accept some of the other minor things (like vehicle mods, etc) because Rigger had not come out yet and when it did all those things were covered.

In fact, just to show I am not a negative douche bag. I want it on record that Chrome Flesh is one of my all-time favorite Shadowrun books. The stories and dialogue are nice and the content is all there (minus a few little things which were quickly addressed). But in all honesty, it was a great book and the standard that I've come to expect from Shadowrun. Rigger didn't quite measure up but it was still not a bad book.

Howling Shadows on the other hand, while having good rules mechanics really suffered with a lot of the fluff. I found the stories to drag on (longer than my posts) and it took a really long time to reach the hook. It felt like a chore reading the fiction sections and I kept finding myself pulled away and having to start over. Making matters worse, the character who is "writing" the book (G-Nome) is a bit of a pretentious dickhead and something of an ideologue or what we here in Australia call a microscope environmentalist. Meaning, someone who has a screwed perspective on nature because they've never had to actually put themselves in a dangerous situation. I don't know if this was intentional or the writer themselves has never really been out in the wilderness and dealt with wild animals. It is not a judgement. This is fiction after all.

But the crime I could not forgive is that most of the time I did not know what I was reading about and when I did, it was because I was already familiar with the critter from previous editions.

Then, the book does not have a Jackpoint login page. Which is a minor complaint, but just when we thought we were done with the troubles in the book... we couldn't find out what website all of this "Data" had been posted to in game. Well, we did but it took sifting through a bunch of stuff we've already read to figure it out.

One of these things, I would forgive. I wouldn't call for an errata. So long as I can use the book for the game, its cool. The Drake section was well done, the animal handling rules are good and I liked the inclusion of more Mentor Spirits. Whoever thought of that had a good idea. They deserve a pat on the back.

I am not a condescending internet troll or a 40-year old pimply faced single basement dweller. I like what a lot of catalyst has done and I love Shadowrun. Its a fun game that me and my friends enjoy. We have two guys that love fantasy, two guys that love sci-fi and me... and with Shdowrun we can meet right in the middle and tell some cool heist stories.

BUT

We do have certain standards, and (like I said in the other post) if we do not have what we need to use the material I paid for in a month, I will stop. We can spend the time playing Mario Party with our partners or going out. We could play other RPGs. We don't have to continue to support the franchise and we wont.

BECAUSE

I am aware of how behind the scenes works here. A lot of folks are not and want to fly to the defense. But I have worked as a writer and I have worked on RPGs, one big company -- one small.  I know that the reason we do not have any errata is because the Freelancers want to be paid to do it or they are too lazy to do it. I want to say right now that you should not WANT to be paid for writing errata if that is the case. Nor are you entitled to be. You were hired to publish a game book, not a novel. You were hired to write a functional set of arbitration for players. If something you have written is cloudy, not easily interpreted or (in this case) lacking you have failed to do you job. This reflects extremely poorly on you as an author.

I would strongly consider (if nothing else) the Freelancer who wrote the material which the community is demanding errata post a "Word from the Author" with said rules clarifications. If this is not legally condoned by Catalyst a simple foreword clarifying these are rules as intended should solve the problem.

I respect the hard work and time you put into these products, but you are not writing them for your own gratification. A novel would not be published if it was missing a paragraph or several words out of every other sentence. An RPG Supplement is no different.

Sorry for this meaty message but I wanted to get this out there. There is really no excuse. I am aware of just how difficult your job is and pretending it is harder than it is or there are invisible barriers preventing you from addressing the issues is careless, irresponsible and lazy. If nothing else you should be happy that so many people CARE enough about what you have written to ask for clarification regarding it.

If the issues with Howling Shadows are not addressed, I will no longer support Shadowrun while in the hands of Catalyst and neither will others in my group and we will be sending letters to people higher in the ladder (thank you to the bloke who posted links to that!), explaining why we are no longer supporting the product and our concerns that it is being mismanaged.

adzling

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« Reply #36 on: (18:38:46/06-14-16) »
Hey Blue you're way off base on the freelancers.

They get their orders from the line editor and he has not (evidently) made errata a priority, or heck even something to be done at some point.

Basically it's all management (and lack thereof) fault.

The freelancers would have errata done asap if the line editor directed them to/ let them do it.

I know this because they post here and elsewhere frequently and in the errata threads themselves while Catalyst's management is AWOL and has been for years now.

BTW anarchy is meant to incorporate/ follow the CUE system Catalyst devised for their super hero RPG.
Take from that what you will.

BrysenBlue

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« Reply #37 on: (18:47:33/06-14-16) »
Hey Blue you're way off base on the freelancers.

They get their orders from the line editor and he has not (evidently) made errata a priority, or heck even something to be done at some point.

Basically it's all management (and lack thereof) fault.

Sorry man, I know you believe that but I'm not buying it. Not even slightly. If the person who did the writing in question posted clarification regarding his writing, it would be fine. If there is really a big evil editor telling them they're not allowed to write errata (which I doubt, the very notion seems utterly preposterous) they should band together and go above his head. Because it is going to be their names that get dragged through the mud. And (and forgive me if I come off a little too Clockwork here) BUT I fully intend to rake me some muck across the web and I will not be buying future material worked on by anyone on the list of people who worked on this book. I will be very vocal about the people who chose not to provide quality work for their customers.

It is just not reasonable to treat your clientele like this and expect repeat business.

adzling

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« Reply #38 on: (19:19:39/06-14-16) »
I agree wholeheartedly with the below assessment but you're targets are incorrect.
The freelancers are just that, contractors.
They have no ability to go over the head of the line editor etc.
They cannot act in any manner for the company or without direction from same.

If the line editor (and Catalyst's management in general) could care less about their customers and will not respond to their customers considerable and long lived pains what makes you think they give two shits about the freelancers opinions?

It is just not reasonable to treat your clientele like this and expect repeat business.

Opti

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« Reply #39 on: (19:35:23/06-14-16) »
Freelancers are like Samurai, ser. They get a job, they do their best. They don't control or own the fruit of their labors. And it is bad form to speak ill of an employer, no matter who you are. They don't control whether or not an errata comes out or not because they can't speak for the company, because they are just freelancers and are paid for work done, not as representatives of the company. Even if a freelancer writes errata or gives a peek behind the curtain, that is only one person's opinion, and means nothing more than a GM's opinion at the table.

I love Shadowrun, for sure. I don't think anyone would doubt that. But I am confused when someone says they love/like it and then says something like this:
I've not really had much of a hassle with anything in the rules prior. We have been playing regularly (one day a week) for over a year. And the first time we really ran into a problem was with Howling Shadows not including a cost modifier.

If you have never had much of a hassle until this last book, why all of the rage-vomit across interwebs? In every other area of people's lives, they tend to suffer long when they love something. But I am not sure that quitting the game and complaining to lots of folks is going to accomplish your mission. I am all for fighting the man, but the golden rule of activism is not doing something that has no chance of working. And if you do what you are promising to do, all you will accomplish is becoming the person that everyone ignores because they only ever rant.

I think I want what you want: To love Shadowrun and to have it be as awesome as possible. But poisoning the water everywhere you go will not accomplish this. It will simply spoil other people's fun as well. And that isn't a noble goal.
« Last Edit: (19:40:07/06-14-16) by Opti »

MijRai

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« Reply #40 on: (19:47:17/06-14-16) »
Well, to start; Shadowrun Anarchy is apparently the new book they're releasing this year, which is a Rules-Lite version of Shadowrun.  That doesn't mean it has no rules, it means they're streamlining and removing most of the 'complex' things for a more narrative style of play or some drek like that.  Having played Rules-Lite systems in the past, I'm not the biggest fan.  There is such a thing as too simple, in my experience. 

I have to disagree with you on the quality of Chrome Flesh, personally; I think the layout was abysmal, especially when combined with the (lack of) index.  It was practically the opposite of intuitive.  I'm a big fan of fluff up front, crunch in the back though. 

And yeah, the writers are freelancers.  They don't have as much influence as you seem to think.  They're paid for the writing they do, and then they are out of the process besides some clarifications.  And given the responses so far, I easily could see a 'big evil editor' being behind this (or big, incompetent, or big, uncaring).  Someone has to be, and it has to be higher in the totem pole than the writers. 

And Opti, I have to disagree with you on not black-listing Catalyst.  If they continue to ignore us and put out sub-par products, they need to lose our business.  Our money is one of the few ways we can have a meaningful impact on them.  We cut the money, we cut their base. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Opti

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« Reply #41 on: (19:51:25/06-14-16) »
totes. It's just that most of their fan base doesn't reside on forums, and even if everyone who threatened to stop buying products actually did, it wouldn't hurt the bottom line as much as you'd think. So as long as the vast majority of customers is still buying the stuff, it becomes very easy to write off excessive negativity as simply the work of "haters." Whether that is true or not is irrelevant. So in this case, I have seen positive interaction change things far more than negative. Just like in psychology.

PiXeL01

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« Reply #42 on: (20:18:54/06-14-16) »
Blue, have you even read the other posts within this very subgroup or under the products heading?
The writers themselves are active, some more than others granted, but time and time again we have been told that word have been sent further up the chain about mistakes made and corrections, yet no errata was ever released.
While there is the possibility that the writers are lying through their teeth, which I doubt based on their responses here and there, fact is that they and even others like AJ, who has a foot in the door keep prodding management about Erratas to no effect.
So again, it is not the writers, it is the top layers.

Also since we are heading into con season don't expect anything at all, except maybe worse quality products as the past has showed that the rush is worse than any other time of the year.
If Tom Bradys a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Critias

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« Reply #43 on: (20:20:34/06-14-16) »
Hey Blue you're way off base on the freelancers.

They get their orders from the line editor and he has not (evidently) made errata a priority, or heck even something to be done at some point.

Basically it's all management (and lack thereof) fault.

Sorry man, I know you believe that but I'm not buying it. Not even slightly.
See, stuff like this makes it really hard to want to reply to you.  You don't come off as asking questions in good faith, or even making complaints in good faith.  Even when Adzling, one of the most critical of CGL posters around here, tries to remind/explain to you how the system works, you just ignore him and go off on another rant. 

Do you have any idea how hard it is to engage with you, when you're acting like this?

You demand to know what SR:Anarchy is, and then go on for like a paragraph about how you already hate it.  You demand errata for some rules you think are missing, then you go on to insist that it be official (but then you shift the goalposts again, demanding that a freelancer do unpaid work);  which is it, do you want something official (in which case none of us here can help you) or do you insist a freelancer do unpaid work and write something for you, that they weren't assigned to write by their boss (in which case, ignoring the attitude you're showing and the fact you're insisting someone do someone else's job without their boss's permission, you're still not actually getting the official errata you demanded).

You're establishing this pattern of behavior, man, that creates nothing but a string of off-topic no-win situations for people.  Not only are you going on these page-long rants in all the wrong threads, but you insist on things, then shift the goalposts to make it impossible to satisfy you. 

And you're doing all of it to the people who can't help you.  Freelancers can't post official errata.  Non-disclosure agreements prevent us from discussing rules creation or backstage discussions, which means we're not supposed to even really have discussions about errata we'd like to see, and it means we have to be really careful when we post even just a FAQ.  Basic professionalism -- since you say you're in the RPG industry, you should know this -- prevents us from posting an errata/FAQ on someone else's work anyways, and NDAs prevent us from posting a meaningful errata/FAQ on our own work, and we're just contract labor, so nothing we post would be official anyways, and it's not your place to demand anything of us at all, anyways, especially when you do it in a way that repeatedly calls us lazy and incompetent.  The list of reasons we shouldn't, and in fact can't, give you what you want just goes on and on and on, and that's without even taking into account the attitude you're showing and the insults you're throwing around.

We're here, on these forums, on our own time, and on our own dime.  We answer questions when we can, we ask questions and get feedback when we can.  We're here on the forums because we're fans, and we got this job because we're fans.  Our pennies per word don't obligate us to take your rambling demands and abuse.  More importantly, though, we can't give you what you keep demanding we give you.  We write what we're told to write, and that's all we have to write, but it's also all we can write.  Our characters aren't our own, our gear, our rules, our critters.  Our authority over a product, officially and legally, literally ends when we send it in for editing.  It becomes someone else's work, and they get the final say on what makes it to publication, but also the final say on what gets said about it, after the fact.  Legally. 

We literally can not give you what you want, as freelancers, but you keep demanding we give it to you, in thread after thread, and insulting us when we don't.  And since you claim to be in the RPG industry, you should know that.  If we're here, on the forum, we're already doing everything we can do, everything we're allowed to do, to try and help out.

Maybe you don't like the limitations of contracted freelance work.  Okay, but take that up with the RPG industry as a whole.
« Last Edit: (21:59:40/06-14-16) by Critias »

Red

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« Reply #44 on: (22:04:27/06-14-16) »
Hell, you should see some of the great stuff that gets left on the cutting room floor. I want to rave about some stuff Alex and I came up with (mostly him, to be honest), but I can't even hint at what it is, or was, or could have been, because of contractual obligation.

Once we write it, and turn it in, it is out of our hands. Sometimes what arrives between the covers is very different from what we submitted. Other times, it's exactly the same. But whatever it ends up as, it's out of our hands from that point on, and there's very little we can do about it. The same goes for any other freelance writer in any industry.
"My writing is more akin to a cook than a farmer: give me the pieces, and what comes out of it is greater than the sum of it's parts. Give me nothing, and I just stare dumbly. It's a failing, but then, it's also a living."


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