[cyclonus743]

I need a rules clarification on the Ignite Spell. I read that the damage doesn't take effect untill it becomes permanent.  Am I correct?

[Tagz]

Yes that is correct.

Things to note though:  while not causing damage until permanent, many GMs think that if cast on a metahuman they would notice their body getting hotter, etc.  Some GMs do not think any sign of the spell happens, other those associated with all spellcasting (such as the noticing magic rules or spell auras).

Another is that the fire is a natural fire once the spell becomes permanent, with the starting intensity based on the spell's Force.  This means things should burn (or start to extinguish if not flammable, like rock, metal, water) as normal.

[agustaaquila]

Well, metal does burn, it just does so at really high temperatures.  Which is why the object resistance table exists and gets harder the more processed the item is.

[KarmaInferno]

It's not merely the lack of temperature that prevents metal from burning.

It's because metal is really good at conducting heat away from the ignition area, and the lack of surface area for the oxidizer to act on.

You want easily ignited metal? Reduce it's ability to conduct heat away and increase the surface area.

Like in Steel Wool, for example.

Plus, technically rusting is burning, as it's also a form of oxidation. Just a really slow one.



-k

[Tagz]

Well yes, but that said should a Force 3 Ignite be able to completely burn a steal beam?  The OR is only 3 on processed alloys, so Force 3 would let you get the 3 hits needed.

Personally I don't think that's a powerful enough fire to burn metal, even though the spell will go off without a hitch.  So at my table I'd have the fire start to extinguish as per rules on Fire Damage on p164.

Course, were that a Force 18 Ignite from a high level initiate with an outrageous drain pool I may rule differently.  I don't know precisely what temperature metal would burn at, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it's likely going to require a higher Force spell then most people would be throwing around normally.

Basically I'm just pointing out that once the spell is cast the fire created isn't magical in nature and doesn't act in any special way, things will burn or go out normally.

[RK5]

Basically I'm just pointing out that once the spell is cast the fire created isn't magical in nature and doesn't act in any special way, things will burn or go out normally.

This would be my interpretation as well.  This spell has many interpretations due to the breakdown between 'magic' and 'reality' explanations, and because of this, i houserule most objects that can be set on fire.  A tire?  sure, beat the OR for a low-tech manufactured object (bricks, leather, plastics, etc) and that tire is on fire.  A metal beam?  that's trickier, depends on what they want to do with it, if they're trying to melt the metal, just beating the OR isnt going to cut it for me to believe that's all it takes to melt metal.  I wouldnt even say it catches on fire if you beat the OR, it may just heat up, glow a little or whatnot. 

This is completely apart from the rules, but its more realistic.  Helps avoid situations where players can say "the rules say it catches on fire, and metal has to be (however hot metal has to be) degrees in order to be on fire, and so at that temperature metal is structurally unsafe and the beam would break."  and start melting metal everywhere they see it because its easy. 

On the other hand, someone with 10 net hits and a force 6 spell i can believe will melt that metal.  No argument there.  A force 3 or 4 spell would be a tough sell for me as a GM though.

[Dead Monky]

Wouldn't it be easier just to use an acid based spell rather than Ignite to melt through metal?  I've always thought of Ignite as something you use to set your enemies' clothes or living room on fire.

EDIT
Typo fixes.

[Morg]

Not sure if it is off topic but here are some bench mark melting points

Tin = 250 °C (482 °F)
Copper = 1,100 °C (2,010 °F)
Cast Iron = 1,375 °C (2,507 °F)
Low Carbon Steel = 1,426–1,538 °C (2,599–2,800 °F)
High Carbon Steel 1,426–1,538 °C (2,599–2,800 °F)
Tantalum Carbide = 3880°C  (7016°F)
Magnesium = 1091 °C (1994 °F)
Aluminum = 2519 °C (4566 °F)

Maybe just set the object resistance threshold a little higher based on melting points or just cause the metal to tarnish everywhere from oxidization, know however that if you get magnesium or aluminum burning your in for a show

[savaze]

In addition to what Morg said...  I work with hot high carbon steels on a regular basis.  Steel burns when it's at its molten point.  If it burns before then, it's only burning a surface chemical or coating, plus everything around it that has a lower combustion point will catch on fire as well.  As a side note you do change alloy and temper properties with the heat before the metal "burns," which can cause all sorts of imminent malfunctions (e.g. knives crack/shatter, firearms become shrapnel when used, load-bearing equipment can't withstand its tolerances, etc).

[Kontact]

A magic user only has to beat an OR of 1 to light the planet earth on fire with ignite.

[Chaemera]

A magic user only has to beat an OR of 1 to light the planet earth on fire with ignite.

One could argue that, since the planet has an Astral Form, it therefore is a living thing (I even think the book says as much) and gets to resist Ignite with it's Body (+ half impact armor). Okay, maybe you'd house rule some "innate" natural armor like the  troll has for good ol' planet Earth, but regardless, imagine, if you will, the Body DP of a planet... Me thinks you'll need a higher force casting... 


Also, strick reading of the spell relating to objects:

The spellcaster must chieve enough net hits to beat a threshold equal to the target's Object Resistance (p. 183). Once the target ignites, it burns normally until it is consumed or extinguished.

For anything with a high combustion-point (everything combusts, if you get it hot enough), once it starts burning "normally", with nothing except the accelerated metal to fuel the fire, the metal will rapidly wick the heat away and douse the fire on it's own. You'll probably warp it, definitely anneal it, and possibly cause it to be a future structural problem, but your fire will very rapidly burn out.

After all, the official rules for a "normal" fire are that they burn as the GM directs them to (SR4A, pg. 165).

At the end of each subsequent Combat Turn, the gamemaster decides whether the fire has grown, shrunk, or stayed the same, depending on the item's flammability, eforts to put the fire out, environmental conditions, etc...

So the only GM's who have to worry about Ignite cracking beams or doing other crazy stuff they never thought it was intended for are the GM's who let it happen.

[savaze]

For anything with a high combustion-point (everything combusts, if you get it hot enough), once it starts burning "normally", with nothing except the accelerated metal to fuel the fire, the metal will rapidly wick the heat away and douse the fire on it's own. You'll probably warp it, definitely anneal it, and possibly cause it to be a future structural problem, but your fire will very rapidly burn out.

Annealing isn't the whole story or the correct one.  The annealing process has a different heat and duration for each steel alloy as well as a very specific cool down recipe.  Simply put annealing is done to maintain the characteristics of it's alloy while lowering it's hardness (it's like relaxing a high-strung person).  The addition of high heat to steel will change the temper at the point of localization (it can go up and down contingent on heat, duration, and alloy)

What's happening when you bring metal to it's combustion point is that it becomes more homogeneous, meaning it loses it's alloys properties and goes closer to it's pure form (purified by fire).  When it cools it'll be softer, in the case of a tempered steels, but it will also be a different alloy or even pure steel and possibly not even the same shape.  Simply put burning metal is like making a human climb backwards in it's evolutionary ladder.

[Chaemera]

Annealing isn't the whole story or the correct one.  The annealing process has a different heat and duration for each steel alloy as well as a very specific cool down recipe.  Simply put annealing is done to maintain the characteristics of it's alloy while lowering it's hardness (it's like relaxing a high-strung person).  The addition of high heat to steel will change the temper at the point of localization (it can go up and down contingent on heat, duration, and alloy)

What's happening when you bring metal to it's combustion point is that it becomes more homogeneous, meaning it loses it's alloys properties and goes closer to it's pure form (purified by fire).  When it cools it'll be softer, in the case of a tempered steels, but it will also be a different alloy or even pure steel and possibly not even the same shape.  Simply put burning metal is like making a human climb backwards in it's evolutionary ladder.

I whole heartedly agree that, if you had a sustained fire for a long duration, all that would be valid in the real world.

However, we're talking about a fire that would dissipate in under 3 seconds by a strict reading of the rules and a little common sense. Even if the metal is at its combustion point, for that short amount of time, you're not going to see a heck of a lot of effect. And annealing is a convenient term used not only by metallurgists for a precise heat treatment of metal, but by engineers of all stripes and laymen, to describe visible changes in a metal alloy as a result of heat effects.

And in a game, regardless of terminology, my point is that a GM that's paying attention won't "go with it" when his players try starting 1800 degree fires with a simple, low drain, spell. Let them use the spell to weaken the metal prior to the application of explosives? Sure, why not. Start a long-burning fire equivalent to a furnace that'll take out the building, everything around it, and leave a molten slag? Nah, probably not.

[Morg]

also of some relevance C4 Explosive can not be detonated by setting it on fire

[savaze]

However, we're talking about a fire that would dissipate in under 3 seconds by a strict reading of the rules and a little common sense. Even if the metal is at its combustion point, for that short amount of time, you're not going to see a heck of a lot of effect. And annealing is a convenient term used not only by metallurgists for a precise heat treatment of metal, but by engineers of all stripes and laymen, to describe visible changes in a metal alloy as a result of heat effects.

And in a game, regardless of terminology, my point is that a GM that's paying attention won't "go with it" when his players try starting 1800 degree fires with a simple, low drain, spell. Let them use the spell to weaken the metal prior to the application of explosives? Sure, why not. Start a long-burning fire equivalent to a furnace that'll take out the building, everything around it, and leave a molten slag? Nah, probably not.

I see the points you're making.  I viewed the scenario as having the same effect as something in the realm of Thermite on metal, the heat and duration would be right with very localized effects.  This whole scenario seems to be all open to interpretation to the GM unless we can figure out a way to Mythbuster it...