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[SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?

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wraith

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« Reply #75 on: <08-07-16/0518:46> »
Three years, Reaver.  That's how long SR5 has been out.  Three years and what, 6 additional sourcebooks, all with glaring editorial errors?

We still don't have comprehensive official errata for the core rulebook.  In fact, we have every reason to believe that Catalyst has never so much as bothered to compile comprehensive errata for it, beyond the stuff that we as a community called out as errors, mostly within a week of publication of the PDF.   Two months before the physical copies even appeared.

Patrick Goodman has volunteered himself to do it out of a desire to actually see it done, and rather than be shamed at their own lack of quality control they have embraced it.

I'm willing to cut folks a lot of slack, otherwise I wouldn't still be interested in SR, but call a spade a spade.  All the good will in the world isn't getting the problems with the product fixed.

tytalan

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« Reply #76 on: <08-07-16/1036:58> »
1st off Reaver I never said anything about the errors of the writers in fact I stated that the problem was in Editing and your wrong a lot has changed in Editing we have software that checks spelling, we have layout software to makes what used to be one of the largest time consuming job to be a breeze in the park but yes errors happens.  The problem is that no one is trying to fix the errors even a little.  Take Street Grimoire it is common sense to check the test copy before you give the go ahead on the print run and it would have only taken a few moments to do a spot check on 4 or 5 of the major errata to be sure that the right file was used not doing this is a fail!

You talk about all the errors that happen in various gaming books but you do not acknowledge the that many of those companies if they did a second printing would print a corrected version and that when fixing these things was mostly done by hand.  Also if you want to name drop how about Armadillo Press even smaller than CGL but not only have they always made sure to publish their errata but when the reprint it is always the corrected version.
Writers are human and make mistakes that why there are editors but even editors makes mistakes that why we have Errata but CGL is not only doing a very bad job editing but are also not publishing Errata at all!  They are producing around 4 to 6 physical books a year for S5 TRS who you ripped on was producing 4 to 6 physical books a month with a similar number of people many of them both writing as well as editing it does not compare!

P.S. As for not Working I Put in 60 hours this week as a manager and worked on my own campaign at home which means I expect a product that I do not have to rewrite to effetely run my game.  Which is why even though we all want to my group is currently not running a S5 game?         

MijRai

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« Reply #77 on: <08-07-16/1334:53> »
Yeah, I'm not exactly on your side here either, Reaver.  You have some good points, and there are people who are directing vitriol where it shouldn't be, but the bigger problem is with the company itself.  30 months since the last Errata update.  The fact that people have to literally go 'hey, we'll do it for free' for years before something comes of it is a problem.  It isn't isolated, as Imladir said; it's happened across the board with this edition of Shadowrun.  The tools have been there to rectify this, and only now is there an organized response to start working on it.  Hopefully, the Errata Team is allowed to make things better.  I want to have a positive impact on the game I enjoy.  I'm still not getting my hopes up at this point. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Mephisto

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« Reply #78 on: <08-07-16/1341:58> »
The most ironic part is that Reaver stamps his feet, rails and whines in the most offensive posts I've seen here...in an attempt to shame others he sees as railing against, whining and being offensive toward Catalyst...

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #79 on: <08-07-16/1402:56> »
If you think those are the most offensive, in my studied opinion, you've not been paying attention. Not to excuse Reaver, but he's far from the worst that have posted here.
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AJCarrington

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« Reply #80 on: <08-07-16/1943:36> »
Friendly mod commentary.

Lots of opinions (some rather strong) and discourse is great...let's just remember to keep things civil.

Thanks, SR Mod

Dinendae

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« Reply #81 on: <08-08-16/0116:04> »
It isn't isolated, as Imladir said; it's happened across the board with this edition of Shadowrun.


Just to touch on this a bit: It hasn't just been this edition either; SR4A had similar issues, and for quite awhile. I'm not so sure about SR4's early years, as I only came in when the SR4A core book was released, but from what I understand there were a ton of other major problems happening then as well.

Malevolence

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« Reply #82 on: <08-08-16/0239:03> »
Good examples of other publishers dropping the ball, Reaver. However, the frustration here isn't that there was a typo or two that got through, or some esoteric error where they referenced an incorrect page in another book or printed a rule that contradicted another book, etc. It is that errors that are immediately and unavoidably obvious to anyone that spent the time to read the book cover to cover (or even a chapter beginning to end) slip through. In every book they have published. And, what's worse, some of them are the same exact errors that were called out and acknowledged previously (like the many issues with tables).


But more specifically to the point for this reprinting is that a reprinting is supposed to include all of the official errata to date. The reprinting of the core book did. And yet this one did not. As far as can be told, not a single piece of errata was included. They didn't just overlook one or two items, they utterly failed to include it at all. It's like going to get your oil changed and they include an 11 point inspection and courtesy window cleaning and when you get the bill they've charged you full price, included the results of the 11 point inspection and your windows are sparkling clean, but they neglected to change the oil. In the case of SG's reprinting, the new cover art is nice and all, but if someone's ponying up the  money to repurchase a physical copy, it's because they want a single point of reference for the rules that includes the errata.


Now, in my opinion, SG wasn't ready for a reprinting anyway. There are way to many issues still outstanding that have been brought up by the community and not addressed by Catalyst to consider a reprinting substantially more usable than the original (even if it had included all of the currently published errata). They should have waited for Patrick and his team to finish at least their first pass (the low hanging fruit and most egregious errors) before asking folks to pony up for a reprint. Those asking for a new printing were a mote on the wind compared to the hurricane of demand for additional errata and clarification (and even then, I think they were largely asking for an update to the PDF).


So, yes, you've shown that all publishers are guilty of making the occasional mistake (they're human, just like we are and no one expects Catalyst to be absolutely perfect). And you've shown that in the paper publishing world, it can take years for updated material to reach print. But I know that in many of those cases (TSR/Wizards and SJG) they provided timely errata on the Internet once that became a viable mechanism (in the last 15 or so years) as I availed myself of it personally. So examples from the 80's and early to mid 90's utterly ignore the sea change that the Internet has had on the ability for publishers to reach their audience (or hear from them).


If you are a publisher, and your job is publishing, one expects a certain minimum level of competence at that function (cue the "You had ONE job" meme). Company size is no excuse. If I take my clothes to a tailor to be repaired and I get them back in unsatisfactory condition, I'm not going to suddenly say "oh, that's perfectly understandable" when the tailor says "oh, well, I only have one employee". I'm going to say "hire more or accept less work, but fix my clothes properly." If he's the only tailor in town (as Catalyst is the only publisher that can print Shadowrun rulebooks) and I therefore have to keep taking my clothes to him to be repaired and he consistently has low quality, I have a right to be upset and get even more irate, and eventually either seek another tailor in another town (new game system), or start buying clothes that are disposable (not sure what the analogy would be here - house rules?). The point is, no, I have never worked a day in the publishing industry. Nor have I worked as a tailor or a mechanic. I don't know what is involved in producing a quality product in those industries. But I have been a customer of all of the above and I know what I should reasonably expect of their products. Catalyst has consistently missed that mark, despite multiple assurances that they would fix the issues at fault.


We have a right to be upset and to demand (and expect) better, and to pretend otherwise is to be an unabashed apologist. It is understandable that we are angry and might be rude in expressing our anger. We can point the finger at the editor, because we own dictionaries and know that the editor is the one that is responsible for making sure the work is up to standard before it goes to printing. So when we say that the editor has failed in his (or her) job, we aren't miscasting our vitriol. As you said, the errata was supposed to be in this book. It was not. No, we don't know what happened (exactly), but we sure as hell know who was responsible. Now, you could argue that the printer dropped the ball. That the editor had all his (or her) ducks in a row and what went to the printer had all the errata, and updated content, and whatever else was supposed to have gone into the reprint. But we have a history of failure that makes that exceedingly unlikely. If they lay the blame at the printer for every past misdeed, then they are still responsible as they should have replaced that printer long ago (which, okay, MIGHT not be the editor's job). But that would still sit wrong as no one has yet (officially) laid the blame at printing, and that would not impact the PDF copy. So we are right back to the editor being where the buck stops. Maybe there are other employees there that are incompetent, maybe that's why the book doesn't have what it is supposed to, but the RESPONSIBILITY lays at the editor's feet.


Now, there is a case to be made for people perhaps being too personal in their accusations, name calling, and other inexcusable deficiencies in decorum, but the moderators have done a swell job of calling those out and corralling them. There is no call for you to address the rest of the community in such a fashion or lump all those expressing their dissatisfaction into one disdainful group.
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wraith

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« Reply #83 on: <08-08-16/0338:59> »
To be fair, I believe the print run was happening anyway, as they likely needed more stock.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #84 on: <08-08-16/0645:15> »
Well said, Malevolence, very well said.

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #85 on: <08-08-16/0749:01> »
To be fair, I believe the print run was happening anyway, as they likely needed more stock.
This. The decision to reprint is not based on, "Oh, look, Patrick has given us an errata doc on Book X. Let us print more, despite the 1,024 copies sitting in the warehouse." It's based on the much simpler, "Damn. We're down to 42 copies of Book X. We have orders for 256. We need more."

I will address this further later. Gotta feed my kid.
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tytalan

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« Reply #86 on: <08-08-16/0849:36> »
That is true Patrick but it is still normal to include any and all errata you have for the Book when reprinting.  It is just the way things are done to do otherwise is to sell an mess up product and THAT IS BAD BUSINESS

Patrick Goodman

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« Reply #87 on: <08-08-16/1018:25> »
I'm going to say this as nicely as I can, Tytalan: I know how it usually works. I've been a professional in this industry for close to 20 years. I've been part of this hobby for upwards of 35 years. I know how it's done, and I likewise know how it's supposed to be done. I will thank you not to insult my intelligence or my professionalism, even tacitly or unconsciously, by restating the obvious for the nth+1 time.
 
I will also thank you not to confuse me with a Catalyst Game Labs decision-maker. I am not one. I'm a freelancer, a contractor; I am hired on a case-by-case basis, and then I'm in the wind. I did not have anything to do with the decision to reprint, or the "Go" order that resulted in this going to print without the errata folded in. Don't berate me for a business decision that I was not involved with.
 
Catalyst has a lot of issues. I know that they're aware of some of them because I've talked with them about those issues a lot. Errata is one of those issues, and believe me, those discussions have been fraught at times. They don't have a lot of the errata. I'm going to be working to change that, but they don't, at the moment, have a lot of the errata.
 
HOWEVER. Yes, there's a "however." However, I've worked with CGL for a long time, and when they have errata and they send a book to reprint, as a general rule they DO incorporate that errata. I've watched the process many times. If they have errata, they incorporate it in a new printing. While this is a screw-up, and by no means their first, in my experience this particular screw-up is also an aberration. I don't know how it happened, but this particular error is not par for the course.
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adzling

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« Reply #88 on: <08-08-16/1131:51> »
Yeah every time this comes up (another easily avoided editing fail) there's always someone/s who steps up to defend Catalyst because "they are small and poor" (that's what their defense always boils down to).

Which is just so much malarkey.

If Catalyst wanted to they could get this right, or very close to it, first time.
After observing them for the past 4 years it's pretty clear they just don't manage the process. Management is awol, providing little to no oversight.
This is clear from their poor / non existent customer service, poor editing, lack of errata and generous copy-pasta from 4ed.
This conclusion is reinforced by the embezzlement/ whatever scandal a few years back that was clearly due to lack of managerial oversight for a long time that allowed it to grow to a size that almost drove Catalyst into bankruptcy.

This is not a well-run company.

As a manager of my own small, resource constrained business I would have looked at the issues and tasked the team to refocus priorities on fixing the broken process and remove everything else from their plate until they got it right.

That would mean no opportunities to distract the line editor from his main job (for example the two (or more?) Srun novels he's written that take his time away from his main responsibilities) etc.

That Catalyst hasn't taken the time to do this speaks volumes.

Frankly I've given up on Catalyst producing a good quality product and placing my hopes in the errata process.

I'm hoping that we can triage 5e into a well-errata'd game system over time and I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

Here's to the future of a player-driven 5e.

tytalan

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« Reply #89 on: <08-08-16/1246:47> »
First off Patrick I was not insulting you I was responding to a post I did not take your job in to account because I do not know you and do not assume one way or another.  Also I was agreeing with you about the timing on reprints, I only point out their they failed to completely follow thru with the job.  I did not direct any insult to you so please do not attack me as I did not attack you. 

Second thing whether this is an  aberration or not it is just another sign of the total lack business ethics  that Catalyst is showing their loyal customers. like adzling I'm in management also, not with my own company but in bring other companies products in to sell and if I was getting the complaints that are showing up here on the forums from my customers I would looking for a comparable product to replace what I'm getting complaints about.

My point is this does not only hurt Catalyst but it hurts the Local FLG's that get either stuck with books they can not sell because they are so riddle with errors and no fixes or have to deal with customers who in this case got an none errata  reprint when they expected an errata one.

I respect you Freelancers your the only reason we are getting what great stuff we are getting and from what I've seen your getting little or no help/direction from Catalyst about rules or other maters which makes the jems you have given us all that more impressive.