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[SR5] Street Grimoire - reprinting?

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EiraHaexa

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« Reply #60 on: <08-04-16/0302:11> »
Come on, Catalyst, you can do better than this.

Their track record would indicate otherwise.

I too want to believe, but there's a P.T. Barnum aspect creeping into this whole thing. I too love Shadowrun, down to my core, and it kills me to see it (not to mention they're customer base) (mis)treated this way.

At least I hear there's now an index. I figure we'll only have to buy 5-6 printings to get the book we should have had 1st time around.

They have the ability to do better, they just haven't, either by choice or some other reason. Which is what makes this even more irritating.

Hell, my future brother in law's dream is to one day have the money to buy the rights to SR and FIX THIS DREK

I have the same dream (unfortunately involving the lottery...) and have posted about it on the Shadowrun subreddit.

I'd get all the licenses (PnP, video game, Earthdawn, etc.) back under one roof, as well as other plans, and give them the respect they deserve.

Excuse me, alarm is going off, time to wake up...

Well, ok. It's less of a dream and more of a dream-like delusion brought on by lack of sleep. He'll stay up for DAYS working on whatever pet project has piqued his interest, but you can be sure whatever he was working on will be PERFECT when he's done with it. I'm the same way, but far less severely. At least I can sleep!
It is better to be crazy and know it, than to be sane and have one's doubts.

"Nothing is wrong if no one can stop you."

Remember, you're only a genius when they need you. The rest of the time you're just an asshole.

Well, drek. Looks like Timmy fell into the Dissonance Well again.

wraith

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« Reply #61 on: <08-04-16/0514:18> »
Figure either of you could remember to send the correct proofs to the printers?

Because that's the level the bar's at right now.   >:(

Reaver

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« Reply #62 on: <08-04-16/0518:49> »
Figure either of you could remember to send the correct proofs to the printers?

Because that's the level the bar's at right now.   >:(

OR, the printer printed the wrong proofs....


Its not uncommon for the Printer to hold onto the proofs as leverage while books are printed, shipped to distrubiters, and then to stores for sale.

In fact, this practice is so widespread (and OLD!!) That it was partly responsible for the collapse of TSR back in 1996/97.


Don't assume you know what happened when you sit on the sidelines.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Mephisto

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« Reply #63 on: <08-04-16/1015:28> »
Anyone's fault BUT Catalyst, eh?

There are 2 major problems with your theory.

1) Catalyst's track record.

2) The DTRPG PDF wasn't updated with the errata either.

Reaver

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« Reply #64 on: <08-04-16/1045:13> »
No, Catalyst has done a lot of things wrong and has admitted as much.


But it amazes me how many people 'think' they know something when really, they know sweet fuck all.

And SOME people have even gone to the point of telling us that they 'know' shit (like how NDAs for freelancers work, how the PnP business model works) when all they are proving is, in fact, they know sweet fuck all.

A lot of people seem to be under the impression that InMediaRes/Catalyst is just swimming in money and are just lazy and trying to milk everyone.

Yet the PnP market is littered by the gravestones of publishing companies.... and I wouldn't be surprised if Catalyst was a stuggling company just trying to keep the lights on and publishing - as that seems to be the case for many publishers nowadays.

In fact, many publishers who people 'think' are big are actually basement businesses run by a staff of 2 or 3 and supplemented by incomes generated by the publishers actual 'real' jobs.

One just has to spend a little time in Google and wikipedia to see how many publishers have followed the Doodoo bird.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Mephisto

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« Reply #65 on: <08-04-16/1652:09> »
I'm under no illusion that the people at Catalyst (all 3 or 4 of them) are sitting there rolling in nuyen.

But tell me, how much time would it have taken one of them to sit down and compare the new print proof side-by-side with the errata document to verify the changes made it in before sending it off to the printer/DTRPG? 30 minutes? 60? Is one hour of one person's time there going to bankrupt them? Yeah, poor, misunderstood publisher.

wraith

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« Reply #66 on: <08-04-16/2024:11> »
If this was the first time this had happened, it wouldn't be a big deal.

It isn't.  Not even remotely close.  This sort of 'mistake' has happened consistently for the last several years, from old playtests getting published in SR5 Core, to the Rainforest Carbine, to the original publishing of Street Grimoire having powers just straight left out, and then further not corrected in the reprint, and a myriad of editorial errors in every published SR5 supplement so far.

Hobbes

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« Reply #67 on: <08-06-16/1406:20> »

In fact, many publishers who people 'think' are big are actually basement businesses run by a staff of 2 or 3 and supplemented by incomes generated by the publishers actual 'real' jobs.


As far as I know there are only a handful of PnP RPG companies with double digit full time employees.  Games Workshop and Hasbro are the two big ones, but GW handed off all the RPG stuff to Fantasy Flight.  Fantasy Flight games has a pretty decent sized staff but they're also doing CCGs and Boardgames and whatnot.  Catalyst is likely one of the moderate sized ones, they've got a couple very good franchises.  The rest of the gaming companies out there I'm betting are pretty small. 

And, yeah, most of the staff is likely paid much less then they could be making working in other industries.  The company itself is likely in the Black steadily enough, but I doubt anyone is getting rich off us PnP gamers.

tl;dr treat your game companies nicely because if they go under the IP is basically gone forever because it becomes the property of someone who doesn't care and will only sell the rights for more money than anyone can ever make off it.     

EiraHaexa

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« Reply #68 on: <08-06-16/1419:10> »

In fact, many publishers who people 'think' are big are actually basement businesses run by a staff of 2 or 3 and supplemented by incomes generated by the publishers actual 'real' jobs.


As far as I know there are only a handful of PnP RPG companies with double digit full time employees.  Games Workshop and Hasbro are the two big ones, but GW handed off all the RPG stuff to Fantasy Flight.  Fantasy Flight games has a pretty decent sized staff but they're also doing CCGs and Boardgames and whatnot.  Catalyst is likely one of the moderate sized ones, they've got a couple very good franchises.  The rest of the gaming companies out there I'm betting are pretty small. 

And, yeah, most of the staff is likely paid much less then they could be making working in other industries.  The company itself is likely in the Black steadily enough, but I doubt anyone is getting rich off us PnP gamers.

tl;dr treat your game companies nicely because if they go under the IP is basically gone forever because it becomes the property of someone who doesn't care and will only sell the rights for more money than anyone can ever make off it.     

Reaper Miniatures is a good example of this. They publish several games, sell both plastic and metal miniatures, and run the annual ReaperCon. Their company is still so small that I know every single employee personally. Most of the employees, even the full-time ones, hold second jobs to make ends meet and only put up with it because they love what the company produces and don't want to see it go away.
It is better to be crazy and know it, than to be sane and have one's doubts.

"Nothing is wrong if no one can stop you."

Remember, you're only a genius when they need you. The rest of the time you're just an asshole.

Well, drek. Looks like Timmy fell into the Dissonance Well again.

wraith

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« Reply #69 on: <08-06-16/1946:51> »
Okay, but how does that matter to expecting competence in their main line of business (publishing RPG supplements), who in fact incorporated specifically to publish Battletech and Shadowrun supplements?

This is the thing they do, and frankly after a few months short of a decade, they should be able to manage the basics of it.

EiraHaexa

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« Reply #70 on: <08-06-16/2104:01> »
Okay, but how does that matter to expecting competence in their main line of business (publishing RPG supplements), who in fact incorporated specifically to publish Battletech and Shadowrun supplements?

This is the thing they do, and frankly after a few months short of a decade, they should be able to manage the basics of it.

Well, they probably have to work through enough bureaucratic red tape to make Dis blush.
It is better to be crazy and know it, than to be sane and have one's doubts.

"Nothing is wrong if no one can stop you."

Remember, you're only a genius when they need you. The rest of the time you're just an asshole.

Well, drek. Looks like Timmy fell into the Dissonance Well again.

tytalan

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« Reply #71 on: <08-06-16/2200:00> »
I'm sorry size means little in this case.  CGL out sources almost all the writing for Shadowrun and instead act as an editor/publisher so a mess up like this is just plain incompetent on a major level.  Many book publishers and magazine company have similar staffs and jobs and they manage to get it right.

You talk like the fact they're not making tons of money is an excuse but they're either doing this for the money or because they love the game and I'm not seeing much love these days. 

The plain fact is as cousumers we have the right to expect a quialty product and we're not getting it.   Don't get me wrong I love S5 but I remember the old days before all the word processors and 5 billion small 2 person game companies with games printed on newsprint and they managed to do a better job than CGL is.   

Reaver

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« Reply #72 on: <08-07-16/0108:42> »
I'm sorry size means little in this case.  CGL out sources almost all the writing for Shadowrun and instead act as an editor/publisher so a mess up like this is just plain incompetent on a major level.  Many book publishers and magazine company have similar staffs and jobs and they manage to get it right.

You talk like the fact they're not making tons of money is an excuse but they're either doing this for the money or because they love the game and I'm not seeing much love these days. 

The plain fact is as cousumers we have the right to expect a quialty product and we're not getting it.   Don't get me wrong I love S5 but I remember the old days before all the word processors and 5 billion small 2 person game companies with games printed on newsprint and they managed to do a better job than CGL is.

That's some rose colored glasses you are wearing there! Where can I get a pair??


Lets see.....

Palladium books: Robotech (1986-1990 printings) Missing stats for several vehicles and Mecha. Missing weapon systems clearly shown in 13 episodes missing from the Alpha fighter, and clearly shown in 3 episodes missing from the Beta fighter. Miss categorized several power-armor and battloids in Southern cross. Miss printed the damage from fighter pods to be 3d4x100mdc...Ship weapon systems listed as doing 1d4x1000, All of which wasn't errata'd until the 1992 FOURTH reprints of the books.
RIFTS: Multiple errors when quoting their own previous released material. 
And lets not talk about the Nightbane/Nightlord legal issues that lead to can actual lawsuit by Clive Barker.

White Wolf: Vampire the masquerade: Many consistency errors among the clan stats in the core books that flew in direct contradiction to the clan books, and even the clan books contradicted other clan books!

Steve Jackson Games, GURPS: multiple errors in their own rules and page reference numbers.

TSR: DnD line. Multiple consistency errors all through both the 1ed, 2dnd books where there was errors in charts, errors in the consistency of spells and saving throws, and just general lore and world problems (most notably in Greyhawk). Marvel Super Heroes: HUNDREDS (yes hundreds) of characters published multiple times with different stats for attributes and powers and that in just 16 released books (both by them and licensed outsourcing)

FASA 1e and 2e Shadowrun errors, Battletech errors, Crimson sky errors...

Should I go on? I have about a half dozen more general examples from smaller AND larger publishing houses...

And lets see if we can find any thing outside of the Games media.... How about Gawker? You know, that online 'News" media empire of over a half dozen webpages? You know, the one sued into bankruptcy due to their LACK of journalistic practises??

What about Salon webpage that backed a KNOWN and PROVEN plagiarist, refusing to remove his articles with proven stolen content??


******

The only thing that has changed over the years in the availability of the internet, both as a source of fact checking, and as a platform for people to whine and cry. Nothing has really changed in the publishing world, except for the political leanings of the content and the overall general decline of journalistic standards.... be that in News reporting, fiction, science reporting, ethics, or even in the grasp of the English language...

.... And don't even get me started on the "new age" cancer that is Social Media (be that twitter, Tumblr, Facebook, myspace, (or whatever fuck-tard-trending platform of the week!)



Is Catalyst perfect? HELL NO. They make mistakes, and in some cases huge ones. Could they, should they do better? I would say yes, they can, have, and I hope, will do better in the future.


But it is amazingly frustrating to me, to listen to a bunch of (what I am assuming) cry baby assholes who have never worked a day in their lives in this media dump on the people that actually DO, and with all the gusto and bravo and courage that the internet allows them to draw up while sitting safely behind their keyboards. I have done writing, in fact a full 1/4 of my job is writing! And while I do not write fantasy, I write something far harder. I write technical updates for field construction changes and user operational and service guides for multi-billion dollar construction works. These take MONTHS of time and effort, and are often times made incorrect by the time I am finished due to OTHER changes that had to be implemented. (And that's before you take into account by piss poor language and writing skills)

I Challenge you ALL to sit down and write up a Shadowrun-esk sourcebook (don't care what it covers) and then post it on these forums to let the community rip it to shreds and call you weeks to months of effort "Fucking useless, hack-filled drivel" and other wonderful comments.

Many of us old timers on this site (and there is NOT that many of us left!) Remember the days when Jason Hardy used to post fairly regularly. When other freelancers would come by and answer questions and when other members of Catalyst would do the same.....


That's just not the case any more. Jason Hardy hasn't said anything in a LONG while (not that I blame him!), Many other freelancers have given up coming here. And many of the most knowledgeable forum members have walked away. And I point my finger at the reason squarely at some members of these forums.


You want answers.... Then you shit all over the people who give you answers, then wonder why they don't come back to give you more answers!!!

If you can't figure out why, then my retarded-fuck-wit friends, I suggest you look in a God Damn Mirrior!!! Cause you are NOT helping the situation.

Be happy that there are people like AJ, Critias, Wak, Patrick  and the select other few who are willing to come here and help and share. Treat them with some respect, or they too will end up waving the middle finger at you/us and walking away.



End Story is: The errata changes were supposed to be in the book, but were not, we currently have no idea how this error happened, but it has. Until it gets sorted out, save your vitriol until you know where is should be spewed.




<To the mods: Yes I used harsh language, yes I directed it at the community. And yes I will happily take any censoring/banning without complaint. But sometimes, shit has to be said.>

« Last Edit: <08-07-16/0214:39> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

The Tekwych

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« Reply #73 on: <08-07-16/0151:44> »
Where is the Like button?
+1

Imladir

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« Reply #74 on: <08-07-16/0325:09> »
The fact that someone breaks the law doesn't mean I can too. By the same token, the fact that other companies drop the ball doesn't mean that there are no consequences if Catalyst screws up.

I'm not saying we should hang each and everyone of them. Mistakes happen. And they do everywhere. Hell, part of my own job is to write too. Scientific papers. You know, those that advance SOTA (or should at least). Even there, mistakes are made. Sometimes, mistakes that completely negate what you thought you just did. No matter how many times you check, and re-check, and other people do. It happens.

But you know what? When it does, you own up to it. You fix the mistakes, and you make sure, as best you can, that everyone is aware of it as soon as you are yourself. Of course, first you have to know that there is a mistake. So yes, you may view some messages here as whines. Or rants. Or...well whatever. Sure, it could be better. Would there still be whines were the books perfect? Probably, about something else. But it doesn't matter: the fact is that, "thanks" to that, Catalyst (and others in the same position) know if, and where, there are mistakes. Some are debatable and matters of opinion, like rule points, layouts and so on. But in some cases, like this one here, there's absolutely no doubt that mistakes were made.

Sure, it's not even been a week, we are in August, it's GenCon, etc. Do this last episode warrants such a high level of criticism? Maybe not. As you said, it happened, it happens, and it will happen. But the fact is that you can't take this last incident in isolation of anything else. Take the ongoing situation with the errata. The load times on the forum are going from lame to retarded to just completely unresponsive at times. The forum's engine is out of date. You could probably find some more examples.

Yes, problems like that are "normal". They can happen, and no one in their right mind should expect them to be tackled in the minute they do. Even if they were, no one would expect those problems to be fixed in a day. Again, no one would realistically expect anyone to meet each and every deadline.

But... But you have to communicate around those issues. First to acknowledge the problem. Second to propose a solution and a deadline. And if you don't meet the deadline? Fine, it's cool. As long as you acknowledge it, explain why and what you are doing to meet the new deadline. And here, Catalyst completely dropped the ball.

Is it a hard job? Maybe. Probably. But it needs to be done nonetheless. And it's not. Yes, there might be reasons. And I do understand that no one wants to be the messenger if it's just to be shot on sight. Hell, I wouldn't want to be that messenger. But it must be done. Yes, some will "shit all over" the one who gives answers. While there's no doubt that it's a dick move, it's no reason to "punish" the majority for the actions of a minority. And let's be honest here: would that minority even be a fraction of what it is now were the situation somewhat better?

There is some hope thanks to Patrick with the errata, which everyone saluted. But it's not enough by itself. It's just a start. An important one, to be sure, but nothing more. I don't think it would kill anyone at Catalyst to post a message on their blog acknowledging the problem with this reprint for example.
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