[Reaper_Sandard]

1) I'm not sure if i miss this in the core rule book, but What is Noise Reduction?
2) My character have Goggle 6 with flare compensation, low light vision, thermograhic, image link. Would i still be able to use all of this if my character look through a scope while wearing the goggle?
 

[Jack_Spade]

1) Noise is a penalty to matrix actions either from distance or from competing signals. Noise reduction alleviates those penalties through signal amplification and filtering techniques.
2) Probably not. But since you have an image link, you could just project the image from the electronic scope into your existing field of vision.

[Reaper_Sandard]

How does a Rigger benefit from Noise Reduction?

[Marcus Gideon]

1) Noise is a penalty applied to everything you do in the Matrix. If you are too far away from the target, you add up distance based Noise for the signal taking so long to get there and back. If you are sitting in Starbucks, you're surrounded by other people and their devices, and there is ambient Noise from all traffic. Items that provide Noise Reduction are strengthening the signal so you're better able to function despite all that interference.

For a Rigger, the further you are from your drone, the more Noise penalties there will be to operating the drone. If you try to chase down the escaping baddies with your Roto-drone and they fly a few miles away, every Pilot and Gunnery check will have penalties for how far away you are from the drone. Noise Reduction boosts the signal so you and the drone can hear each other better, reducing those penalties.

2) Well...
Flare Compensation only counts if someone sets off a Flashbang, at which point it blots out a majority of the bright flash.

Low-Light Vision is a vision mode that amplifies what little light is present, allowing you to still see colors and shapes mostly like normal.
Thermographic is a completely different vision mode that relies on infrared heat signatures.
So you automatically have to decide whether you're using Low-light or Thermo, not both.

Image Link is really just the heads up display that lets you see Augmented Reality. So it can overlap with anything else.

Looking through a scope, if the person you were aiming at were to set off a Flashbang, then presumably the Flare Compensation would help. Although I'm not sure you really need to worry about being blinded by the Flashbang if you're far enough away that you're relying on a scope to begin with.

Through a scope, Low-light would be beneficial since it amplifies what little light there may be at the target location.
Thermo on the other hand relies on heat signatures, and you're probably not going to detect heat from that far away with any accuracy. So you could make out a car driving from the engine heat, but you wouldn't make out individuals walking unless they're feverish to the point of needing hospitalization.

Image Link, as I said before, can be overlapped on top of anything else. It's just going to give you things like a chat window in your peripheral vision with a little blinking icon that says you have new emails, and a calendar reminding you that your mom's birthday is next week.

[Haywire]

How does a Rigger benefit from Noise Reduction?

Every wireless rigger action (think of jumped wirelessly in a drone/vehicle) takes a dice pool penalty equal to Noise. Noise reduction offsets or alleviates this penalty.

[Kiirnodel]

For 2, it also matters if the scope is digital or optics. If it is a digital scope, then your goggles can't help. If it is an optical scope, I would rule you might be able to use some of your goggle's extra effects.

Think of it like using a copier to make copies of copies. A digital scope is displaying a copy, any loss from what the scope can't see can't be improved by the goggles. An optical scope isn't changing the light, so you can use your goggles to further process the information.

[Strange]

Low-Light Vision is a vision mode that amplifies what little light is present, allowing you to still see colors and shapes mostly like normal.
Thermographic is a completely different vision mode that relies on infrared heat signatures.
So you automatically have to decide whether you're using Low-light or Thermo, not both.

Is there someplace in the rules that say this?  I know it makes sense in modern usage, but in the future, who knows?  I could see a low light picture overlayed with subtle thermographic imaging system.  They can probably do it right now, but it seems like it would just be confusing (green objects overlayed in progressively darker shades of grey or warm colors).  Then again, it might work well.  You could see shapes fine through the low light, and temperature variances within it.  For instance, if you were following someone in low light conditions, you would see them as a person, color modified for heat, and their footprints (faintly) that disperse in a few seconds(they would probably have to be barefoot for this to work, but its just an example).  With futuristic systems I bet it would be pretty seamless.  I guess a better example would be a car, you could see it ok with the low light, and see the engine and exhaust system as well.

Just my thoughts.

[Marcus Gideon]

If you have the option between choosing Low-Light or Thermo... then you need to evaluate the scene.

Low-Light will automatically bring the setting from Dim Light (-3) or Partial Light (-1) up to Full Light (-0). The only category past that is Total Darkness (-6) which means there is no light whatsoever.

Thermo shifts the lighting up 1 row. Which means it could bring you out of Total Darkness, up to Dim Light. Or Dim up to Partial.

If you allow them to stack, it's useless 2/3 of the time since Low-Light automatically moves 2 categories up to nothing. And if you allow stacking in Total Darkness, you're letting them come up 1 row, and then hop the rest of the way to the top. Meaning that Thermo + Low-Light = Never suffering light penalties.

Now... thematically, Thermo is infrared type stuff. It's a digitally generated image b/c it functions even when there is absolutely zero light to see with otherwise. So how are you going to use Low-Light to make that any better than it already is? At most, you would be viewing the digitally generated image really brightly. So you could have Thermo goggles with very dim screens inside, and your Low-Light eyes see that dim image just fine. But you can't say that Thermo takes the utter blackness, and turns it into some amount of light, which your light sensitivity makes so much better than you can see as though it were daylight.

[Strange]

I wasn't suggesting that at all.  Also, thermographic imaging doesn't have to be bright, or even in color, it can be reproduced in greys.  What I was suggesting is for the not obvious benefits of thermography to be used whilst still using night vision, like in my examples that I already provided.  You can use thermographic imaging for things other than seeing in complete darkness.  Is there a rule that prevents you from using both simultaneously?

[UnLimiTeD]

Fusion sights even today allow you to blend IR and NV together, for example in an NV scope that displays people brighter.
But shadowrun has rules simplifying reality, so there's limits on that.
If you use an optical scope in front of your goggles, everything should work, though it can be argued that hat signatures would be diluted when looking through the scope, which probably modifies the input by means of physical lenses and the like.
Similarly, lowlight vision might rely on traces of UV and IR light to amplify your visual input, and could be similarly diluted; that is not factoring in specific scopes being built for just those purposes in the future, of course.
It's more or less a tossup.

[Marcus Gideon]

I was just pointing out that; as much from a fluff perspective as from a game mechanics perspective, there are reasons not to allow them to stack.

Fluff: Thermo works regardless of ambient lighting, so it's generating imagery off some other source (such as near infrared). Low-light is simply amplifying ambient light. In the case of total darkness, there is no ambient light to amplify.

Mechanics: Thermo moves up 1 category, which according to the chart in the book could take you from Total Darkness to Dim Light. At which point Low-Light says that it automatically moves Dim or Partial all the way up to Full. Meaning that the only way to handicap someone just using Low-Light is to plunge them into Total Darkness. Otherwise they have no disadvantage. If you allow stacking Thermo (to get up out of Total Darkness) and then add in Low-Light (to nullify the remainder) then it means they will never suffer penalties. At which point, why bother with Total Darkness to begin with.

As soon as you tell your group that you're allowing stacking like this, they're going to go pick up some Eyeware with Flare Comp, Low-Light, and Thermo... and proceed to spend the rest of the game going "Nanner nanner GM, we're impervious to Light effects!"

[Rooks]

Except thermo is from one source and low light is from another source both of which are super imposed on one monitor and do no work in concert with one another, but thanks for trying

[Marcus Gideon]

Except thermo is from one source and low light is from another source both of which are super imposed on one monitor and do no work in concert with one another, but thanks for trying

Then how would you run it? Cus that's where this whole convo started... do you get to count both at the same time, or do you have to choose?

Random Joe comes home late, and trudges up the stairs to his apartment. He opens the door, steps just inside, and closes the door behind him. Oddly enough, none of the lights that usually turn themselves on for him seem to be working, and the room is pitch black without a hint of light.

Joe has his Oak-Lee's sunglasses with Low-Light and Thermo installed.

Now as I said before, thematically the Low-Light is using light amplification to help you see. If there is ZERO light in the room then they are useless. However, game mechanics say that they will automatically improve Dim or Partial all the way up to Full, thus negating the penalties.

Thematically, Thermo sees using infrared, which doesn't require any amount of ambient light. So that will still function in the utter blackness that is his apartment. However, game mechanics say that it just moves the penalty up 1 category on the chart.

So... thematically, the Thermo is the only thing that would work in this situation, and it would still leave a pretty decent penalty. Moving up from Total Darkness (-6) to Dim Light (-3). Joe can hardly make out that there are shapes in the room. The Low-Light is useless since even after activating Thermo, there still isn't any ambient light for Low-Light to amplify.

However, game mechanics-wise, if you allow them to stack the 2x vision enhancements, Thermo moves the Light effect penalty up one category, from Total Darkness to Dim Light, at which point Low-Light's game mechanic says you automatically move from Dim Light clear up to Full Light. Now Joe can see as clear as day that there's a surprise party waiting to spring.

Now as the GM sitting across from Joe's player... do you let him stack the Thermo and Low-Light, completely ruining the point of using Total Darkness in the scene. Or do you adhere to the thematic fluff and say that he's still got a -3 penalty?

[Strange]

Marcus, I don't think Rooks was responding to you (at least that is what I get, it is hard to understand that sentence), and I hope no one here thinks the light amplification would in any way stack with thermographic in terms of 'light amplification' (which it can't, they both work on different wavelengths).  It's not stacking, again, that I'm referring to. Legally they both could be on at the same time, but you only get the benefit from the best one.  On advantage of them both being on is if you are in a low light environment but suddenly it drops to no light, your thermo is already on and you suffer less penalties.  Multispectral vision already exists, anyway.  I was just curious is there was a rule that prohibited them both being on, which it doesn't appear there is.

[Herr Brackhaus]

I'd agree they could both be "on", but you'd have to pick which benefit to use.

This is like that age-old argument about gas-vent systems and silencers; you can build both into a gun, but you can't get the benefit of both at the same time (at least not at most tables) unless the gun has some sort of special design where this is potentially possible (I'm looking at you, Ingram Smartgun X).