[KarmaInferno]

I presume this is from War.  If not, please let me know where this information can be found.

I suppose I should have said that I haven't read War.  My suggestions are how I handle it in my campaign.

That would have been smart when the topic is about the up to rating 10 comlinks included in that book

Thanks for the flames.  I was answering the post as to how I would deal with the situation, nothing more.

Dude, the very first sentence of the first post was "Since WAR! there are now new Commlinks with new higher Ratings out of Pandora's Box. But what does this mean for the Game?"



-k

[Bradd]

Optimization can't exceed R6, and shouldn’t apply during software creation as it is a modular add-on option.

You don't need optimization 10 to run a rating 10 program. You add optimization to System for maximum program rating, so you only need System 5 + optimize 5 to run a rating 10 program. Also, I don't see why you can't buy program options at character creation, so long as they don't violate the limits on availability and rating.

Um no, rating 7 comlink can be had in chargen if your willing to pay thought the nose for it, if not it's quite easy to get and much cheaper in game.

Sorry, no gear over rating 6 at character creation (p. 86, SR4A). I don't think you can exceed that even with Restricted Gear. I imagine there must be an exception for Armor ratings, but I haven't found one.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Frankly, it continues to frustrate me that the idea of "MilSpec" is "super awesome". I work with this stuff daily, unless it's guns, ammo, and vehicles, then it's crap compared to what I can buy in a Wal-Mart. MilSpec spaghetti (yes, I've read the MilSpec for spaghetti) tastes bad, MilSpec computers run Windows 2000 more often then they run Windows XP. They probably won't run Windows 7 until the rest of the world is using Windows 10.

Sure, the military uses plenty of off the shelf gear. That's not "Milspec" because its already covered elsewhere. However, the military (basically meaning corporate strike forces) also have access to stuff fresh out of Corp R&D that's not ready for primetime. To take a modern example, the average grunt may have a standard, not so great rifle and a flak vest but the government as a whole also has F-22's and computer technology a decade ahead of mainstream (that's the legend anyway). Taking Aztechnology as an example, your average grunt in the Aztlan theater probably doesn't wander around with a Rating 8 hardened commlink but if they call out the Jaguar Hackers, you can bet they'll have better gear than the guards at some R&D facility in Seattle.

[Chaemera]

Heh, I'm just too close to the matter to easily divorce the reality of Mil-Specs from game interpretations (or Hollywood's theories, for that matter).

Although, I can actually defend the 1500 dollar coffee maker they gripe about in Independence Day. Given where it's used, it has to be able to be as convenient to use as any other coffee maker, but guaranteed not to spill, fall, crack, or fail under some pretty extreme angles and dangles, as well as significant pressure variation. That's one rugged coffee maker.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Having said all that, remember that the max Rating for programs isn't just 10, its 2*System with Optimization, so that's 20 for normal Milspec and up to 26 with an AI in residence. Forget the UV nodes, write yourself one Rank 10 Agent with a Rank 20 Programming autosoft and fire the entire R&D department. Add in Ergonomic to the autosoft and your Milspec commlink can run nine copies for (with teamwork, buying successes) 21 Hits per programming roll. Since your average software developer produces maybe 2-3 hits per roll, I wonder if this might not actually be cheaper than hiring 10 programmers.

[Kontact]

Autosofts are still capped at 4, that hasn't changed.

[Ultra Violet]

@Nomad Zophiel
There are many things in your way...
First Programs Rating 10 is the limit, so your 20 doesn't exist. Secondly it isn't clear if there exist Agents or IC with high Rating, because in WAR! are only mentioned System, Firewall, Common and Hacker Programs. So it's unclear.
Autosoft is clearly mentioned, and caped at the old Ratings (Active Skill Soft at 4, Language and Knowledge Soft at 5).

But the new maximum Ratings do have high impact...
Imagine a rigger in a drone (maybe a new Paracritter-Biodrone)... with a Matrix Initiative of 24 (and more) and 5 IP, additional most test are based on Response which is 10.

[Maelstrom]

Optimization can't exceed R6, and shouldn’t apply during software creation as it is a modular add-on option.

You don't need optimization 10 to run a rating 10 program. You add optimization to System for maximum program rating, so you only need System 5 + optimize 5 to run a rating 10 program. Also, I don't see why you can't buy program options at character creation, so long as they don't violate the limits on availability and rating.

My suggestion was disallow Optimization during software creation (writing the program), so the hacker can't write a rating 12 program with R6 optimization on a system 6.

Optimization is perfectly legal at character creation if the GM allows the optional rules.

[Maelstrom]

Dude, the very first sentence of the first post was "Since WAR! there are now new Commlinks with new higher Ratings out of Pandora's Box. But what does this mean for the Game?"

-k

As I said, my suggestions were in how to deal with it.

[Ultra Violet]

My suggestion was disallow Optimization during software creation (writing the program), so the hacker can't write a rating 12 program with R6 optimization on a system 6.

Optimization is perfectly legal at character creation if the GM allows the optional rules.

The thing is, with or without the program option it is and will be a Rating 12 program, it only counts for the commlink system as Rating 6, but not for the character generation rules, there it is a Rating 12 and so it isn't allowed from the start. But after that it is and that is here the basic topic. And I said that some of the GM (maybe most of them) will forbid it in their Game, but those of them who doesn't facing new problems. And to point that problems out and finding solutions for them, I made that Thread.

[Kontact]

First Programs Rating 10 is the limit, so your 20 doesn't exist.

Tell that to a starting Technomancer.

By the time a hacker could conceivably have a single R20 program, according to the suggested karma/nuyen growth standards, a TM could thread all his CFs to 16, with options, and get Sprite-related DP bonuses of 8-12 from Assist Operation and Probability Distribution.

[Nomad Zophiel]

First Programs Rating 10 is the limit, so your 20 doesn't exist.

Tell that to a starting Technomancer.

By the time a hacker could conceivably have a single R20 program, according to the suggested karma/nuyen growth standards, a TM could thread all his CFs to 16, with options, and get Sprite-related DP bonuses of 8-12 from Assist Operation and Probability Distribution.

Depends on how long it is between runs. Writing a program costs nothing but Lifestyle. Yes, its a long extended test to get enough hits since Optimization makes it effectively Rating 30 but if you've got even a Rating 6 commlink running five Agents with Ergonomic, Optimized Rating 10 Programming Autosofts, they can collectively add 20 dice (five hits) to your pool on their own. If there's a Rating limit for programs somewhere, I haven't seen it explicitly stated. In fact, programs are one of the few rated objects in the corebook that don't have a range of ratings listed in the chart. I imagine the original designers didn't take into account that someone would come along later and add the Optimized option, Rating increases for resident AI's and rating 10 systems and figured that the rules in place would effectively keep Rating bloat under control. The current net effect is that any Rating bloat effects programs doubly.

[Kontact]

Again. Autosofts.  Hard-capped at 4.

Besides, Unwired errata made it a GM call as to what constitutes a creative effort, and therefore can not be replicated by Profession Autosofts.  So, all a GM has to do if he doesn't want his characters running Programming Pilots is say that magic word.  "No."

As to AIs making a Home in a R10 commlink, that's not how that works.
AI's home node is a Lifestyle with associated costs.
You would have to replace that link every month as it burnt out from the overload.

Besides, all commlinks have a base device rating of 3, since they are "common electronics" which is what an AI's home node is about.  Maybe I'd allow using a fancy commlink to serve the same purpose as buying several months of rent in advance, but it still counts as a 3/3 home node.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Again. Autosofts.  Hard-capped at 4.

As to AIs making a Home in a R10 commlink, that's not how that works.
AI's home node is a Lifestyle with associated costs.
You would have to replace that link every month as it burnt out from the overload.

Sorry, point on Autosofts taken, which does eliminate my concern about Agent bootstrapping for high rank programs.  As for AI's, yes you'd need a hyper-Luxury lifestyle (100k/month+), No argument there, but you'd also have a Rating 13 Link.

[Ultra Violet]

First Programs Rating 10 is the limit, so your 20 doesn't exist.

Tell that to a starting Technomancer.

By the time a hacker could conceivably have a single R20 program, according to the suggested karma/nuyen growth standards, a TM could thread all his CFs to 16, with options, and get Sprite-related DP bonuses of 8-12 from Assist Operation and Probability Distribution.

I only told what is written in the "WAR!".
And pointing on Technomancers isn't a solution. Btw. your example is flawed. If a Technomancer would like to have a CF at Rating 16 she has to have at least 8 in her Resonance Attribute, and has to resist a fading of 8 DV (Physical), and get -2 to all other tests. Sure you can push CF with sprites, but first of all you need a registered sprites, and they are usually limited by the Charisma Attribute of the TM, and it takes time and fading, too. But if she does it, Assist Operation is only temporary, so it is a juice for hardcore times (a couple of Combat Turns) and not 24/7 available. And usually as GM it is easy to juice the TM out. And since fading damage and Matrix damage are real Damage only a tiny little part of specially designed (PG) Technomancers could live long enough to get more than a couple of this CF running.
But you are right, it is possible! But I doubt that any TM could raise all of his CF to Rating 16 at ones.
And if a TM could pull up the stand, it isn't a stable one, any GM could throw him off at ease. One time consuming Matrix action, like an encryption, taking a couple of minutes and *puff* there goes the task and another and another...

I don't say that Technomancers are not good at this or powerful. But most of their powers and tricks are only temporary, and need time and often pain to recharge.

And I do understand that hacker players want things like that, but is a new limited Rating 10 for programs really the answer of there prayers? I doubt that. I think, the impact is at the moment really unforeseeable, but in a couple of month we will see, how it works or who uses it for their play.