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spirit as guard

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living

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« on: (09:43:44/08-29-15) »
let say i put a lvl 3 spirit in front of my door to guard it and give me a headsup if anyone opens the door or is otherwise intruding.

does any possibility exist that anyone is bypassing him without me noticing? if he get killed, i feel it. he is dual so he sees invisible enemys and looks trough camo, he only looks at one door, so sneaking should be impossible (at least open the door).


seems kinda over powered...

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #1 on: (09:45:52/08-29-15) »
Well, your door is going to be protected. Assuming someone coming to gank you will come through the front door. Big assumption. As a guardian doorman it works ok.

It's not really overpowered because a Force 3 spirit isn't anything to write home about.
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living

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« Reply #2 on: (09:55:45/08-29-15) »
Well, your door is going to be protected. Assuming someone coming to gank you will come through the front door. Big assumption. As a guardian doorman it works ok.

It's not really overpowered because a Force 3 spirit isn't anything to write home about.

well the greater Problem is not PC using this, but NPC. a lot of  facilities have one good spot to break in (some only have one spot like a bunker). or a small one room magical supply shop with only one room. etc.

sure theire must be a mage.. but we started to take high profile jobs, so a mage in a protection team is standard. and like 90% of stealth approaches get countered by a well placed spirit.

firebug

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« Reply #3 on: (10:57:36/08-29-15) »
well the greater Problem is not PC using this, but NPC. a lot of  facilities have one good spot to break in (some only have one spot like a bunker). or a small one room magical supply shop with only one room. etc.

sure theire must be a mage.. but we started to take high profile jobs, so a mage in a protection team is standard. and like 90% of stealth approaches get countered by a well placed spirit.

Only one good spot to break in?  Unlikely.  And if the facility already knows about it and has a spirit just stand there all day, then it's not a good spot to break in from in the first place.

A spirit isn't infallible either you know.  Spells work on them--  They're not any harder to get past than an astrally perceiving mage with a biomonitor.

Regardless though, my point is "find another point of entry, or make one".  You should not be entering a facility from somewhere so obvious that they are so ready for someone to come through that spot that they paid a magician to tell a spirit "Stand in this spot until my shift ends and stop anyone from entering."

Alternatively, use illusions or mind control magic (which still works on spirits, it doesn't say anywhere it doesn't).  Alternatively, don't do a stealth approach.  Do some serious recon with drones (which the spirit won't spot due to not standing out on the astral and their small size) and then plan a blitz route.  If you have a decker or a rigger, you can use a Kanmushi to spy.
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living

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« Reply #4 on: (11:40:35/08-29-15) »
kanmushi?

the point is that cutting thru walls is not very silent. so if u position a spirit at the door, or the key way trough the building, there is no chance to avoid them silent. at some level i c the security mage as a spider. sitting in the control room and his spirits do the guardening (like a rigger with drones and cams).

i know that spells work on them. but he sees dual so illusions dont work. the question is does mind control work? doesnt he tell his master that smth is curious? for a security mage its not hard to summon a lvl 6 spirit, so he got all mentals on 6 + maybe antimagic. its kinda hard to controll for a long period.

but on the other hand, i got a problem as GM. if i dont place spirits in vital places, i can hand the whole floor plan to my team. nothing stops the mage from scouting every inch and person and the scouting of the rigger is worthless...

at bigger facilites you will not encounter 1 spirit, more likely 2-3. one spots the maindoor, one the elevator down to the vital palces and one is over the the building spoting around.

i know this is high security, but with a ~300 karma team you got to step up the letter for high profil runs...

the problem is that all silent appraoches are either worthless or you got no protection (as GM) against magic intrution.

the most time the team trys the stealth approach till spotted by a spirit and then brutforce theire way to the objectiv. and thats everytime a all or nothing scenario... as GM its very hard to be consistent an present a challenge that is difficult but not impossible. i would like my player to have the possibility to succeed with sneak but it doesnt fit in the world.

firebug

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« Reply #5 on: (13:08:06/08-29-15) »
Shiawase Kanmushi.  It's a microdrone that looks like a small bug.  It's perfect for spying because of it's size and that it actually is mistakable for an insect.

Cutting through walls can be very silent actually.  They also have a spray foam thing that melts glass silently.  Seriously, if "through a door" is how you think a stealth approach goes...  You should really study up.

Why wouldn't an illusion work?  Just because it may have an aura doesn't mean it's automatically spotted as an illusion, especially if it's an illusion of a living thing.

Alternatively if they know there's a mage, they can try and eliminate them before entering.  This will get rid of the spirits.  How to do that?  I'm not going to spell it out for you...  But there's ways.  Drones with drugs.  Silenced sniper bullets through walls.  Your own spirits...  Be creative.  Take them out in a way that doesn't immediately alert everyone else, and if that is impossible...  I don't know what to tell you.  You can't take out a single person without being found out, so stop trying stealth and just work on a better mission style.

Finally, it's inaccurate to say a silent approach is worthless if you can't pull of the entire run without being spotted.  Getting in before being spotted is a lot different than going through the front door--  Err, sorry.  It should be anyways.  HTR team times can make a big difference.

Instead of trying to avoid setting off alarms, set off false alarms.  Use distractions.  The bigger the facility, the more vulnerable it is to such tactics.  Drawing some or all of the security to a point elsewhere lets the stealthy parts of the team go in avoiding what's left while not needing to worry about alarms being sounded.  If they are spotted by someone, it should be by the time they're already in the heart of the complex near their target.  This can be accomplished with bombs, spirits, drones, illusions, or a roided-up street samurai for the distraction.

What I'm trying to say is, be creative.

Try using disguises!  Unless the spirit is somehow in a place literally no-one is supposed to be, in which case it's so far into the facility that it spotting the intruders is too little too late and a waste of money.
« Last Edit: (13:10:55/08-29-15) by firebug »
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SlipperyChummer

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« Reply #6 on: (01:17:48/08-30-15) »
Couldn't you just Banish the spirit? As far as I can see, that's not disrupting, so I don't think the summoner would be notified.

Also, unless the corp is blowing 75 drams of reagents (i.e. 1500 nuyen) to bind each spirit for however many services the mage manages to get, the spirit is going to poof out at sunrise and sunset. That may be a gap during which runners could take advantage of.

The mage will have to go home (or at least leave sometime), which means he'll have to leave the (100 x magic) meter area. So he'll almost certainly have to change shifts with another mage. Runners could probably do something with that too, perhaps taking out a mage before he can finish installing replacement spirits.

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« Reply #7 on: (07:32:59/08-30-15) »
Just do a stealth roll. You can still stealth against dual natured enemies, even if physical camouflage doesn't work. Guarding one stationary door might give a situational bonus, but some distraction and a good stealth roll will get you past with the spirit none the wiser.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #8 on: (10:26:07/08-30-15) »
1. Banishing sucks.
2. Successful Banishing alerts the summoner/binder.
Playability > verisimilitude.

living

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« Reply #9 on: (15:34:35/08-30-15) »
Just do a stealth roll. You can still stealth against dual natured enemies, even if physical camouflage doesn't work. Guarding one stationary door might give a situational bonus, but some distraction and a good stealth roll will get you past with the spirit none the wiser.

it would be +3 (Perceiver is specifically looking) and myb -2 for distracted. i'd say to see the door opening the spirit is looking at, it wouldnt be an opposed test but an threshold 1-2 test.(its not about seeing the sneaky person, but to see the door open) and in addition a opposed test to see if someone makes sounds.

Shaidar

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« Reply #10 on: (04:44:32/12-21-17) »
Wards are more cost-effective than spirits.

Pinicles

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« Reply #11 on: (06:54:49/12-21-17) »
Manascape + Invisivility+ Sneak.
 
 

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #12 on: (08:39:12/12-21-17) »
Despite this being 4 months old, I want to chime in.

If a spirit is told to report on anyone coming or going through a door, opening the door isn't going to cause the spirit to report. If a spirit is told to report every time the door opens then a set of false positives could get it ignored.

Reaver

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« Reply #13 on: (12:54:17/12-21-17) »
(Actually, this post is 2 years old :P)

What some people are forgetting is that Spirits are Sapient. Which means they are fallible. All the usual methods of getting past a guard will work on a Spirit. fast talk, distraction, stealth, bribery, etc.

People seem to always assume that a Spirit is a willing, helpful robot..... They are not. They are Sapient entities from another realm (Astral space), that have been bound to your will and forced to do a task in exchange for a magical Mcgruffin (we are never told what a Spirit gets out of the deal). This means it is entirely possible to have a Spirit under your control that actually really, REALLY hates you. This also means that, just like any other sapient species, they have all the normal failings of a Sapient.

In short, having a Spirit do a task such as "watch a door" is no more effective then having a meta human do the exact same job. In fact it could be a worse option as, the Spirit's stats are tied directly to it's Force. In the original example, it was a Force 3 Spirit... which means this spirit is basically equal in all ways to a the average person (all stats are 3s), which means this Spirit really isn't going to notice a whole lot (ASTRAL perception checks run 6 dice only. and ASTRAL perception is the only search method they have - called out in the CRB)

So a creative approach to the spirit may get surprising results in interesting ways.   
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SunRunner

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« Reply #14 on: (08:04:14/12-28-17) »
Its important to note that mana illusions affect the mind of the targets(s). If you have a mana illusion successfully affect a spirit its all in their mind and the fact they are dual natured is meaningless. The main reason mana illusions are not popular is they only affect living things which means drones and cameras dont see the illusion, they see what is really there. If the spirit is physically manifested then all you need is an invisibility mana spell and if it does not resist it your invisible to the spirit. Also as mentioned all the mana based manipulation spells will work just fine on them as well which is all the ones you really care about like influence and control thoughts. This is the purview of the GM but it is also worth noting that as mentioned above the spirits can be fast talked and bribed as well, alot of this is up to the GM. Its one of the reasons I go to great lengths to role play how well I treat my spirits with most of my characters. I heal them up after combat if they took any damage or I let them go if I cant fix them even with substantial services left over, I avoid all of the actions that are specifically called out as upsetting to spirits like forcing them to maintain spells for you and such. I tend to play most of my mages as fairly religious (I strongly favor shamanic based traditions) and try to use spirits for their intended role meaning if I am fighting I summon my combat spirit and I avoid summoning spirits in environments that would upset them. If I am underwater I dont summon any of the elemental based spirits accept water. Fire, Earth, and Air spirits have cause to be upset if you summon them under water. This can be limiting based on where you are and what spirits your tradition has access too but its part of treating them nice, I also role play with my spirits (alot of this is done in down times not game time with my GM) meaning I do things like summon my spirits and then tell them to go have fun and stuff, ask them if there is something I can do for THEM ect. I also name my spirits and tend to re-summon the same spirits repeatedly assuming the GM has no objections to it.