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Possible official answerer from Devs about shapeshifter IP?

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Frankie the Fomori

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« on: <09-08-10/1620:28> »
First I am sorry for anyone this annoys, I posted this question over at dumpshock under Naga-nuyen and though there was commits and debate I would like to see if I can get an official answer from Jason and team?

This is the example shifter out of Ghost Cartels. Using this as the example would players also get the IP of 2, and if they do and there an adept does the Improved Reflex power add to this to the Max of four passes? Also would they receive the ability concealment or was this a mistake on this shapshifter?
Thanks for your time and have a good day.

Also Jason and rest of the team, even if you do not have an answer I would like to thank and those that have added to the Shadowrun world over the last 9+ years I was away. It is a fantastic place to game in.


Quote
Shapeshifter (Jaguar)
Shapeshifters are rare paracritters with the unique ability of adopting human form. While in human form, they can wear and use human clothes and gear. In animal form they appear as large Awakened versions of their animal relatives and boast all the innate animal abilities. In the Amazon Jaguar and Monkey shift ers are particularly common.
B A R S C I L W M Ess Init IP
5 7 5 5 2 4 4 5 1 6 9 2
Condition Monitor Boxes: 11
Armor (Ballistic/Impact): 8/5*
Skills: Survival 5, Tracking 6, Unarmed Combat 6 (Natural Weapons +2)
Powers: Concealment, Enhanced Senses (Hearing, low light vision, smell), Natural Weapons, Regeneration
Weapons: Claws [unarmed, Reach 0, DV 4, AP –1]
* Only in human form "Page 169 Ghost Cartels"

Copyright© 2008 WizKids Inc. All Rights Reserved. Shadowrun,
Ghost Cartels, Matrix, and WK Games are registered trademarks
and/or trademarks of WizKids, Inc. in the United States and/or
other countries. No part of this work may be reproduced, stored in a
retrieval system, or transmitted in any form or by any means, without
the prior permission in writing of the Copyright Owner, nor be otherwise
circulated in any form other than that in which it is published.
Catalyst Game Labs and the Catalyst Game Labs logo are trademarks
of InMediaRes Productions, LLC. Printed in Canada.

Critias

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« Reply #1 on: <09-08-10/1631:07> »
NOT AN OFFICIAL ANSWER:

SERIOUSLY, I'M JUST A FREELANCER AND CAN'T REALLY TALK WITH AN AUTHORITATIVE TONE EVEN IF I WANTED TO:

NO KIDDING, ONLY MY PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS:

There's a long and proud history of PC versions of things not necessarily working just like NPC versions of things.  Once you include player character Ghouls, Drakes, Shapeshifters, Free Spirits, AI's, etc, it becomes necessary to either (a) gimp the NPC versions of all of them, to make them match up "balanced" PC versions, or (b) just accept a discrepancy and move on.  The things you need an NPC version of a monster to be able to do, as a character in a given sourcebook/adventure/plot/scene/fight, aren't necessarily the same as what a PC version of a monster should be routinely capable of, in a game that's got vaguely balanced player characters.

Personally?  I'd say the NPC werejag stats have nothing to do with the rules for running Shapeshifter PCs, and call it a day.  If I did automatically give all PC Shapeshifters a second IP (for whatever reason), it wouldn't stack with Adept powers, I'd let them have whichever was better (IE, don't buy the Adept power unless you're getting level II or better).  I wouldn't get hung up on Concealment, either, or allow PCs to take it -- because it seems to me like it's there to just make spooky South American werejaguars particularly scary and characterful.  Not all PC shapeshifters automatically get Survival at 5, Tracking at 6, and Unarmed Combat at 6, either, do they? 

But that's just my take on things.  If you think it'd work in your game, particularly if you feel Shapeshifters need the IP boost to be competitive, go for it!

Frankie the Fomori

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« Reply #2 on: <09-08-10/1640:15> »
Thank you for your impute sir, I will continue to run them as written in runner's companion till I get a official response....and am not bothered if I never get one :) I just thought I could ask the question because for some shifter's it would make sense that there are subtle differences about them. Also there is the difference between two sources, but like I said before I will take the companion source for the PC till I get any other addition from Catalyst team.

I also understand that they are already a powerful PC  race as written, so either way this shakes out I am happy.

Casazil

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« Reply #3 on: <09-08-10/1741:25> »
He's a freelancer I'm Demo team member but I'll add my 2 nuyen's worth to this as I understand it the animal form stats only work in animal form and magic / tech only work in humanoid form.

Even if allowed to have adept powers work in animal form you can never have more than 4 passes as is the general rule of SR4 (with the eception of being a hacker which can have 5 but then they do act a the speed of thought)
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anotherJack

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« Reply #4 on: <09-08-10/1752:28> »
About NPC and PC versions of the same critter, wendigowak don't have the "sapience" power in my french SR4A core rulebook. I found it very strange : wendigowak are magicians, and smart enough to push metahumans in cannibalism and disguise themselve to live among metahuman community.
I've always thought they were smarter creatures than the average metahuman, and actually they're just beasts in their NPC version ? even the spirits they summon are smarter than them !
Me am french, me am not speaking good english, but me am trying to correct this.

Mäx

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« Reply #5 on: <09-09-10/0134:40> »
He's a freelancer I'm Demo team member but I'll add my 2 nuyen's worth to this as I understand it the animal form stats only work in animal form and magic / tech only work in humanoid form.
Thats wrong in pretty much all counts:
1.Shapeshifters dont have different stat blocks for the different forms, they use the same one when they shift into a metahuman
2.Ware only works in their animal form, magic i assume works on both.
"An it harm none, do what you will"

Casazil

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« Reply #6 on: <09-09-10/0146:15> »
Your right stats are the same I thought it said these are your stats and when in natural form add this to your stats.

An yes magic works in both forms but teah only works in your natural form and an essense of 0 makes you stay an animal also only delta tech is allowed.

But still even with all that your not going to get more than 4 passes in a combat.
"If at first you don't succeed blame someone else"
Joel "Casazil" Rogers
Catalyst Demo Team Shadowrun Special Agent #251
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CasazilsShadowrun/

Frankie the Fomori

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« Reply #7 on: <09-09-10/0217:42> »
Good day chummer's, please bear with me...sometimes posting is hard for me?

I understand that the little kitty will only max at 4 IP's regardless of how he gets receives them that is not the question I have. I suspect that they will follow the same rules as the infected with multiple IP. Yet what I would like to know why there is a difference of the two creatures, or why is it the wolf and the cat shapeshifters lose the second IP that the normal animals get.....

I care not how the PC comes out at the end, one, two IP's matters not. If I want to run a shapeshiter NPC I want to know how to create him to challenge PC's with all the correct information, if the normal critter is the form of the (GC) one...then that is cool. If the NPC is the same as the PC version then fine. But if possible I would like to know by the developers which one is which? I do not expect them to respond, they have other valuable things to spend their time on, and i have no hard feeling if i get no official answer....I just thought it would not hurt to ask.....

I can read the rules, it is sometimes hard for me to work out what it is trying to say...but I suffered some injuries that make clear thought a little harder for me...like when I post here, I type out everything, then I send it to word, then I send it to my wife for her to read and see if I might insult or upset someone..... I really love the Dumpshock/shadowrun community, and I try very very hard to add to the community....I try to post descent questions, and hope to add something of value that GM's and player's may take and use in the games. I hope I did not lay it one to thick, and if you would like I could become a more silent member of the community?

Take care fellow runners, and enjoy the next day!

Casazil

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« Reply #8 on: <09-09-10/0224:27> »
More or less it breaks down the npc version is just different than the pc version for the one simple reason game balance.

Somethings a great idea for an npc is cool enought to be a pc character but it needs to be tweaked to no be under or over powered vs. other pc characters

As for this comment you made "and if you would like I could become a more silent member of the community?" You speak up as much as you want its your right!
« Last Edit: <09-09-10/0546:44> by Casazil »
"If at first you don't succeed blame someone else"
Joel "Casazil" Rogers
Catalyst Demo Team Shadowrun Special Agent #251
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CasazilsShadowrun/

Irian

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« Reply #9 on: <09-09-10/0252:40> »
On the topic "NPC vs. PC abilities" I disagree. IF you allow players to play Ghouls, Shapeshifters, Drakes, etc. these should follow the same rules as the other Ghouls, Shapeshifters, Drakes, etc. Imho it's not a good idea to allow playing them but downgrade the playable version beyond recognition. Either something IS suitable to be played or it isn't. Downgrading playable versions is (imho) like jumping into the mud but expecting to stay clean. Either it's a good idea to get dirty or it isn't. If it isn't, don't jump - but do not try to find clean mud.

Generally, I don't like "breaking the rules for the NPC". If the rule is, that the maximum value of an skill is 42, than no NPC should have more. NPCs that don't have any stats like gods, great dragons, etc. (remember: If you give it stats, your players WILL find ways to kill it) are an exception here, of course, but there should be no exception for Johnny Something - just because he's supposed to be good doesn't mean he should be able to do the impossible and have a skill of 43.
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Casazil

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« Reply #10 on: <09-09-10/0554:10> »
Eh its not ......downgradeing per say its..... hum lets go with this thought see if it makes sense to you.

Think of the NPC version as wild, or feral if you will vs. the PC version that's tame, or civilized.

Can the PC be as big an bad as the NPC sure it's not that one can have more than the other it's that the PC has learned to conform to socitiy.

Or at least that is one way to think about it .........I guess.

Eh go with what ya want I mean it's your game and you should run it as it fits your want/need/desire.
"If at first you don't succeed blame someone else"
Joel "Casazil" Rogers
Catalyst Demo Team Shadowrun Special Agent #251
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CasazilsShadowrun/

Lansdren

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« Reply #11 on: <09-09-10/0811:07> »
The logic on the matter is this

A wolf gets two IP's

A Wolf shifter is supposed to be a bigger badder wolf this is why he is the Alpha

Why wouldn't the wolf shifter get the native bonuses to being that species just as the perception bonuses or claws / teeth when in animal form.

A balanced view might be they get the second IP when in animal form but lose it when in human form


A official answer would be really nice though
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Frankie the Fomori

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« Reply #12 on: <09-09-10/1121:16> »
Yeah, I thought that balance could be maintained if it was just in animal form.

anotherJack

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« Reply #13 on: <09-09-10/1124:11> »
A Wolf shifter is supposed to be a bigger badder wolf this is why he is the Alpha
No need to have more IP for this, though it helps. It can be bigger badder (and it obviously is since it regenerates) but slower.
Me am french, me am not speaking good english, but me am trying to correct this.

Irian

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« Reply #14 on: <09-09-10/1426:57> »
Personally, I would tend to use the rules from Runner's Companion anyway (3 IP, no Concealment) and rule, that the IP-bonus doesn't stack, meaning that a magical 4th pass would be pretty expensive. Concealment could be explain with the Knack quality (which would let you use one spell or one spirit)

Edit: As Frankie points out at the next page, that part is wrong (my mistake, sorry)
« Last Edit: <09-09-10/1447:55> by Irian »
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