[Senko]

Let's not forget too that in some cases the Dragon and the mega are the same. I don't think that SR dragons are actually as powerful as D&D dragons. In D&D they are viewed as merely big monsters that give lots of experience when killed after the gm only lets them use their breath weapon and natural attacks against a party. In SR, they are viewed as they are presented, near un-killable beings who take out cities and smaller militaries at will but prefer to work being the scenes. If D&D dragons were played how they're written and statted adventuring parties would run the opposite direction rather than start calculating how they are spending the XP and treasure. So I don't think they are gods in SR but they do make awesome supervillians if you will along the lines of Doctor Doom, Lex Luthor, or even Blofeld or Moriarty.

William

The other part of that is the character power level a top tier Dnd party is going to be equal or stronger than even the oldest dragons especially given the fact as you said most aren't played intelligently and using their spells/magical items. On the other hand shadowrun has a more fixed/lower power level for the characters so even a too tier one aren't going to be a match for a dragon unless they get very lucky, a lot of behind the scenes support.

[Gardensnake]

I can't argue with any part of that posting. You sir are 100% correct.

William

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

SK is listed as a public traded company in the Corp Guide ...

... which just means to me that someone wrote it without consulting previous information - in earlier corporate books, SK was listed as a private corporation.

However, Berkshire Hathaway is, I think, probably a prime example of this, though I don't know if Berkshire A (trading as of this posting 939,981 shares at $215,462.76) is actually Voting stock, and Berkshire B (1.07 billion shares trading at $143.55) is actually Preferred.  (I would think so, though - Berkshire A has apparently never split, and has only distributed dividends once, which is why it's trading at $215,000 per share.)  There's actually a PDF link on their website discussing the differences between the two.

I can, in any case, see Lofwyr going this route.  A SK IPO would net him tens of billions, I would think, even if he were retaining the lion's portion of shares for himself ... since he might initially distribute them 1:1, 10:1, 50:1, or even more to those who possessed SKP-A shares...

[Psychochink]

The god equivalent in Shadowrun, would be the creator.

The Dark One. It which created the being who rebelled, and from whose tears the nine races were spawned.

The being that dragons fear above all others, for while It will give the rest of the sentient races the sweet release of death, the dragons shall have no such mercy.

They will know eternal pain. They will be corrupted, twisted, and made Its own. Then will It return to reign over all the world.

All hail the Dark One. The Hunter of Great Dragons.

All hail Verjigorm.

 

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Aztechnology apologist.  *spits*

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Aztechnology apologist.  *spits*

Posts like this is why the forum needs a Like button

[Psychochink]

Aztechnology apologist.  *spits*

You will be the first on the altar!

My take is Aztechnology are the ultimate dupes. If they are ever even partially successful, I think there's going to be a lot of brown pants. Actually, taint or possession by a relatively minor horror within the Azzie's leadership would explain a lot...

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

That's what's supposedly inside the room in Aztechnology that's mentioned in Dunkelzahn's Will - a Corrupted Dragon, likely a feathered serpent, possibly a Great Dragon if you're feeling REALLY mean to your players.  Also, potentially the thing that President Whateverhisnamewas looked at (also mentioned in The Will) broke a control tie from them to him.

Aztechnology is working off the idea that 'if we get them here, they'll consider us their friends, and not hurt us'.  I think it's a non-starter, but that's me.

[brasso]

Not meaning to bump, but for anyone else who comes across this thread - found the 'canon' discussion of  'can metahumans kill a dragon' in Clutch p.126+, and the accounts of dragon combat in Storm Front. Thanks for all thread contributions.

[Marcus]

Dragons are tough. But they aren't that tough. Sure your average shadowrun team has basically no chance. But milspec tech is another level. Force 20+ spirits, Cannons, missiles, military vehicles, Dragons are kill-able with that kind of gear, it'll cost lives and more resources then you would ever want to spend. The toughest part is going to be finding them and keeping them in one spot long enough to concentrate sufficient force. Dragons are super smart, and plenty prepared.

[Gardensnake]

Dragons are tough. But they aren't that tough. Sure your average shadowrun team has basically no chance. But milspec tech is another level. Force 20+ spirits, Cannons, missiles, military vehicles, Dragons are kill-able with that kind of gear, it'll cost lives and more resources then you would ever want to spend. The toughest part is going to be finding them and keeping them in one spot long enough to concentrate sufficient force. Dragons are super smart, and plenty prepared.

Not to mention that the Dragons will probably have all of that too in addition to being a dragon.

William

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Not ... really.  A corporate dragon can gather some of it; a corporate Great Dragon can certainly gather all of it.  But that, then, forces the dragon to rely on other beings, namely metahumans, to help protect its ass.  The only two things that a dragon can pull out on its own are a) big magic and b) big spirits.  Which can be plenty, but the problem remains pinning the dragon into one spot long enough.  A dragon has far greater mobility than an army, after all.

[Psychochink]

Also, it depends on the dragon. If you're talking Ghostwalker (Icewing), canonically that's a very different prospect to any other great dragon.

[witchdoctor]

As has been mentioned before killing a Great Dragon in Shadowrun is an entirely different concept than one in D&D. In D&D dragons are powerful but compared to SR dragons dumb as rocks they loot the countryside and retire to their Lair in the mountains, SR Dragons loot the countryside but are arguably smarter because they do it 100% legally and their Lair isn't some cave in the mountains sometimes their Lair is a Megacorp or even an entire country. So even assuming you could theoretically kill a Great Dragon most of them are smart enough to set up shop where there would be a lot of collateral damage if someone tries to go toe to toe with them which makes the equation of "Do I really want to do this?" skewed heavily in the Great Dragon's favor. So while SR Dragons are physically weaker their intelligence and ability to manipulate the system makes them much more dangerous than their D&D counterparts.

[Gardensnake]

As has been mentioned before killing a Great Dragon in Shadowrun is an entirely different concept than one in D&D. In D&D dragons are powerful but compared to SR dragons dumb as rocks they loot the countryside and retire to their Lair in the mountains, SR Dragons loot the countryside but are arguably smarter because they do it 100% legally and their Lair isn't some cave in the mountains sometimes their Lair is a Megacorp or even an entire country. So even assuming you could theoretically kill a Great Dragon most of them are smart enough to set up shop where there would be a lot of collateral damage if someone tries to go toe to toe with them which makes the equation of "Do I really want to do this?" skewed heavily in the Great Dragon's favor. So while SR Dragons are physically weaker their intelligence and ability to manipulate the system makes them much more dangerous than their D&D counterparts.

I wouldn't say the dragons in D&D are dumber, it's merely how they are portrayed. There is nothing stopping a D&D dragon from doing exactly what Shadowrun dragons do. D&D suffers a bit from mimicing Tolkien in that players and GMs don't think outside of what Tolkien did enough. Why couldn't a D&D dragon set itself up as ruler of a small kingdom and make alliances with other kingdoms and even do all kinds of shadowy stuff? The limit is in the imagination of the GM and the players. In fact D&D could be played very much like Shadowrun if a group wanted to do so. Many of the Shadowrun elements are already there. The main thing it would require is just a different approach to the game. Instead of just wandering around and randomly murdering monsters and bad wizards, have the party act more like a shadow run team and go on "runs"

William