[jim1701]

I don't think running silent is useless even for non-deckers though I think a non-decker really needs to think about what should run silent and what should run wireless off.  First I don't think that an enemy decker is going to spend all his time looking for silently running icons.  Matrix perception is an action and it take time and it means you aren't doing anything else at the same time.  You also have to have some kind of target to make a matrix perception test against.  What exactly constitutes a target, however, is largely up to the GM IMO. 

I don't think it is a good idea to allow targets that are too vague but then that's where a Matrix Search or a regular old Perception test can help define a target.  Enough hits on a Matrix Search can generate the data needed to target a specified icon which you can then attempt to spot.  A perception test might let you spot something or someone unusual which you can then use as a target for Matrix Perception.



Matrix Perception is also an excellent reason to make sure your devices are all slaved to a device that has a good Sleaze rating. 

[Bulshock]

I didn't say cybereyes, I said visual devices which is much broader then cybereyes.  If it's running silent you wouldn't know if they are cybereyes, contacts, glasses, goggles, camera sensors, etc.  But you would know it was a visual device.  Commlinks, as they have a camera, would probably also be in there.  So it's a very broad category, but you know one important fact.  All of them are visual devices.  Just like the one important fact with saying all augmentations, they're augmentations

Jim, the target of a Matrix Perception can be 'scanning for Silent Running Icons', it even specifies that in the action text.  And sadly, you don't share Sleaze with slaved devices, only Firewall.

[Kincaid]

Jim, the target of a Matrix Perception can be 'scanning for Silent Running Icons', it even specifies that in the action text.  And sadly, you don't share Sleaze with slaved devices, only Firewall.

Slaving specifies

Whenever a slaved device is called on to make a defense test, it uses either its own or its master’s rating for each rating in the test.

Firewall isn't specified, so I'd totally allow Sleaze to be shared.

[Bulshock]

I stand corrected.  I thought it specifically mentioned Firewall, but now after looking at it again it only mentions that in the example.  Another reason for everyone to be hackers, or at least have a Sleaze attribute.

Edit: And for Technomancers to grab a Deck/Sleaze Dongle.

[jim1701]

Jim, the target of a Matrix Perception can be 'scanning for Silent Running Icons', it even specifies that in the action text.

I agree.  That's why I mentioned the use of Matrix Search and Perception to clarify a valid target.  If I physically look around and due to the number of hits I get on a Perception test that the GM tells me that I notice you standing 20 odd meters away and you look dodgy then IMO you become a valid target of a Matrix Perception test and since you are physically close enough I automatically spot any icons that are not running silently and if I beat the opposed test I'll spot your silently running icons as well. 

Similarly I see a Matrix Search performing the same kind of function.  Though in that case you have to have some kind of idea as to your target or else a search is useless.  That's why i wouldn't have a Spider performing a Matrix Perception test unless there was indicator to give him a target to focus on such a IC going offline suddenly, a successful attack action being performed or perhaps noticing that a security camera in a particular location is going glitchy.



Edit: Kincaid already addressed the sleaze thing.

[Bulshock]

The thing about Matrix Perception is you get to ask questions, one per hit.  If your Perception is looking for Silent Running icons and you get 2 hits, your questions could be 'What Icons are Running Silent?' (or similar, pretty much needed for using it for looking for Silent Running Icons) and 'What of these isn't an RFID tag?'  Which by how Demi-GOD's doing it in Data Trails is the only way we have rules for doing that.  Conversely, if you can exclude a type of Silent Running Icon, you can exclude all but one type.  The second question would change to 'Which of these are imaging devices?' or 'Which of these are weapons?' or 'Which of these are augmentations?'.  If you can exclude a certain type there is no good in world reason you can't exclude everything but one type.  Many things would fall under multiple types.  Cybereyes would be both imaging devices and augmentations, if they have a weapon installed they would also be that, though you could argue that the eye laser (or whatever) would have it's own icon.  A Camera sensor would fall under both Sensors, and visual devices.

Now you could argue that only Demi-GOD's can do that, in which case you have the issue of 100 silent running RFID tags providing all the Matrix security someone needs.  Or if you say that you can only exclude things, then you end up with RFID, extra sensors, someones rappelling gloves with wireless on (everything that isn't a throwback after all), and so on all running silent, all of them small, and all of them on that list you now have of silent running icons that you can only exclude specific types of things from.

[jim1701]

Well YMMV but if you force a decker to spend multiple turns sorting out icons to determine what to take an action against then combat decking is DOA plain and simple IMO.  Combat does not last long enough to let a combat decker spend the first couple rounds just trying to figure out what is what. 

Also, I will again state that asking about silent icons is not a valid question IMO.  Asking about all icons associated with a specific person or object that I have physically perceived or that I have gathered specific information about via a Matrix Search ahead of time IS a valid question IMO.  Now, if aforementioned icons are running silently then there is an opposed test or if they are over 100 meters from my current location there is a simple test. 

[Kincaid]

Well YMMV but if you force a decker to spend multiple turns sorting out icons to determine what to take an action against then combat decking is DOA plain and simple IMO.  Combat does not last long enough to let a combat decker spend the first couple rounds just trying to figure out what is what. 

Also, I will again state that asking about silent icons is not a valid question IMO.  Asking about all icons associated with a specific person or object that I have physically perceived or that I have gathered specific information about via a Matrix Search ahead of time IS a valid question IMO.  Now, if aforementioned icons are running silently then there is an opposed test or if they are over 100 meters from my current location there is a simple test.

There are two things at work here.  First, the main topic of this thread, the ability (or lack thereof) to identify potential risks that are running silent.  Second, and this is probably worth discussing as well, is the inherent lack of action economy with the Matrix Perception action.  Standard Perception tests are either free (when the GM calls for one) or Standard when you initiate one (and you generally get bonus dice when you do).  Since Matrix Perception is a Complex Action, and common Matrix sequences involve stringing together two successful tests (and then possibly spending yet another Complex Action to mark--we're now at three Complex Actions to set up your "real" action), it's not uncommon to see deckers spend entire IPs rolling Spot checks, which isn't terribly fun.  Alternatively, you also see decking strategies that involve busting into a host running silent with a bloated Sleaze score, working off the assumption that the spider will never be able to actually locate you, forcing him to burn Complex Action after Complex Action.  This isn't a bad strategy (hide from bad things), but creates a really non-interactive game experience.  I'm thinking about houseruling MP to follow the same action types as regular Perception. 

[Bulshock]

So, you're of the opinion that only Demi-GOD's can single out things like RFID tags from silent running icons, then?  That is what it sounds like, at least to me.  Because that is outright stated in the fluff text as something they can do.  If it's not something exclusive to them, then it has to be something that other Hackers can do. 

As for Combat Decking, yes.  It's pretty much DOA as it is.  Even if you don't require them to search through stuff, if someone is worried about deckers, they can just turn wireless off on everything they have.  Then the Hacker can't do anything to them.  The thing I'm more thinking of is with regards to fast out of combat hacking.  Having to sort through 100 icons on someone (all of them silent, RFID tags don't take that much room, it's outright stated in Core that they can be microscopic) would make hacking tedious.  That is what we are trying to avoid.  Because if hackers couldn't do that, then if I was a corporation I would tag all my security guards, cameras, and pretty much every stand alone device with ~ 50 tags or so, if it's reasonably cost effective (standard prices for RFID's, it is).  Simply to make it next to impossible for a hacker to do anything without a direct connection.  It would end up making for a not fun game for the hacker.  And would make it tedious for the GM if there is a hacker against them.  Neither of which are ideal.

[Xenon]

Asking GM about "silent running icons in the vicinity" is just a way to get an idea that there are "silent running icons in the vicinity".
- You skip that step if you already suspect that there is a silent running icon out there.

If you want to spot the icon of a device more than 100 away you take a matrix perception test. If you want to spot the icon of a device that have reduced matrix traffic you take an opposed matrix perception test. There is really no big difference. You don't need to first ask about "silent running icons in the vicinity" and then spot them one by one at random. You just take the opposed test. That's it. The target device does not have to be within 100 meters either. You can spot the silent running icon of a device that is half across the world if you like. This is RAW and there are examples to back this up in both core and data trails.


If you see a wireless enabled device but not it's icon you can try to spot it with an opposed test.

If you are successfully attacked then you can try spot the aggressor with an opposed test.

If you snoop someone that send a message to a silent running target you can try to spot the recipient with an opposed test.



When talking about PANs the book say that you can filter icons in the PAN into one icon. Your commlink can keep track of which icons that are part of a personal area network (slaved to a master device) and which icons that are not.


It also mentions that you can set your commlink to for example not merging dangerous or interesting icons, such as weapons. So your commlink can tell the difference between a weapon device icon and a device icon that is not a weapon.

[Darzil]

I'm thinking about houseruling MP to follow the same action types as regular Perception.

I started a thread on the idea here: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=19312.msg344219#msg344219 but got no replies.

[adzling]

Yeah I have been toying with the idea of just writing our own rules for the Matrix, Rigging / vehicle chases and barriers.
They are the three sections of the rules that are horribly borked and just don't work imho.