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A few questions about CFD

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psycho835

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« Reply #15 on: <08-07-15/1344:21> »

Man, Parabotany is one problematic book for CFD.

Parazoology 2 also had interesting ideas on going after soft nanites and playing havoc with the rest at least.

Quote from: Parazoology 2 pg 37
NANOPLASMOSIS (AWAKENED TOXOPLASMOSIS)
Vector: ingestion
Speed: 1 Day (8 )
Penetration: -2
Power: 10
Nature: Parasitic
Effect: Special
This unusual protozoan infects nanosystems, destroying the nanites as if it were a competing species. This protozoan not only feeds off the organic compounds
found in soft nanites, but it has the ability to resonate a field that jams individual nanites.
Nanoplasmosis degrades nanites faster by any remaining Power rating it has after a disease Resistance Test. If the Power is reduced to 0, one nanosystem is still
permanently reduced by 1. If an infected subject has a nanohive, the protozoans infiltrate the system, preventing the creation of new nanites. The going hypothesis
is that the protozoan Awakened within a netzumi and is transmitted through fecal matter.

Ah, nanoplasmosis. I think one of the previous CFD threads discussed deliberately caused pandemic as a CFD counter. Could be really useful in Boston right now.

I would say that acquiring regeneration will have minor benefits.  It would purge the nanites, but the sensitivization may have already occured.  Once regenerstops holding off the nanites, reinfection can occur just like an addict after treatment. 

I thought we are talking "cure", not "vaccine"?

Sendaz

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« Reply #16 on: <08-07-15/1352:05> »
I would say that acquiring regeneration will have minor benefits.  It would purge the nanites, but the sensitivization may have already occured.  Once regenerstops holding off the nanites, reinfection can occur just like an addict after treatment.
that is a very good point, plus if you introduce regen after infection, to what point is the body rolling back to? 

At least a Vamp with Regen prior to infection has the body is going back to his 'save' point as he already has a sort of template, but would someone who is infected by nanites and then uses the plant for regen where does his brain roll back to?  Brain damage is a funny thing at the best of times.
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« Reply #17 on: <08-07-15/1438:13> »
I would say that acquiring regeneration will have minor benefits.  It would purge the nanites, but the sensitivization may have already occured.  Once regenerstops holding off the nanites, reinfection can occur just like an addict after treatment.
that is a very good point, plus if you introduce regen after infection, to what point is the body rolling back to? 

At least a Vamp with Regen prior to infection has the body is going back to his 'save' point as he already has a sort of template, but would someone who is infected by nanites and then uses the plant for regen where does his brain roll back to?  Brain damage is a funny thing at the best of times.

This isn't brain damage as far as the brain is concerned. CFD is actually changing the position and composition of the neuron clusters. Effectively, they are biowriting your brain!

I don't think Regeneration would anything other then hold you at a certain point until it ran out. If your brain was 20% rewritten when you got regeneration, it would stay at 20% until the regeneration wore off.... then the little buggers go back to work.
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #18 on: <08-07-15/1452:22> »
I thought we are talking "cure", not "vaccine"?

Oh that's simple then.  Shut off the Matrix.

psycho835

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« Reply #19 on: <08-07-15/1832:15> »
I thought we are talking "cure", not "vaccine"?

Oh that's simple then.  Shut off the Matrix.
What does matrix has to do with infection? It's the nanites that you have to worry about.
I would say that acquiring regeneration will have minor benefits.  It would purge the nanites, but the sensitivization may have already occured.  Once regenerstops holding off the nanites, reinfection can occur just like an addict after treatment.
that is a very good point, plus if you introduce regen after infection, to what point is the body rolling back to? 

At least a Vamp with Regen prior to infection has the body is going back to his 'save' point as he already has a sort of template, but would someone who is infected by nanites and then uses the plant for regen where does his brain roll back to?  Brain damage is a funny thing at the best of times.

This isn't brain damage as far as the brain is concerned. CFD is actually changing the position and composition of the neuron clusters. Effectively, they are biowriting your brain!

I don't think Regeneration would anything other then hold you at a certain point until it ran out. If your brain was 20% rewritten when you got regeneration, it would stay at 20% until the regeneration wore off.... then the little buggers go back to work.
Makes sense. The nanoplasmosis should be looked into, though. If nothing else, it should slow down the rewriting process to a crawl.

Mirikon

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« Reply #20 on: <08-07-15/2332:09> »
Hmm. A combination of Nanoplasmosis and something that gives Regeneration could be a workable cure. It wouldn't repair any rewriting that had already taken place, but aggressive treatment along those lines, especially in the early stages, while the nanites are still building strength, would be effective. Further combine it with something that temporarily knocks out your immune system so that you're not resisting on the Disease test, and you've got a powerful argument.

And while spells have proven ineffective against the nanites, a spell to empower the Nanoplasmosis (increasing its Power and penetration, for instance) may work.
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psycho835

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« Reply #21 on: <08-08-15/0610:43> »
Hmm. A combination of Nanoplasmosis and something that gives Regeneration could be a workable cure. It wouldn't repair any rewriting that had already taken place, but aggressive treatment along those lines, especially in the early stages, while the nanites are still building strength, would be effective. Further combine it with something that temporarily knocks out your immune system so that you're not resisting on the Disease test, and you've got a powerful argument.

And while spells have proven ineffective against the nanites, a spell to empower the Nanoplasmosis (increasing its Power and penetration, for instance) may work.
Done a bit of checking. Forget about Regeneration, even if the rewriting process counted as damage, it wouldn't help. Regeneration explicitly doesn't work on brain and spine. And as a side note, diseases aren't mentioned, but it would be just weird if the power didn't interfere with nanoplasmosis.

As for immunosuppressants, 4E's "Arsenal" comes through. Zero, p. 76.

Magically empowered nanoplasmosis sounds good in theory, but there's the same problem as with nanites - targeting. How do you target something too small to be seen?
I would propose a genetically modified version of nanoplasmosis. Now, you might be wondering where would players get resources for something like that? The answer - they don't. One of the corps creates the cure, because, let's face it, a headcase pandemic affects the bottom line. Hell, seeing as at least one dragon is infected, I could definitely see Lofwyr take an interest in combating CFD. The players would have to focus on capturing test subjects, snooping for intel, quietly dispersing experimental cures etc.
« Last Edit: <08-08-15/0613:22> by psycho835 »

Mirikon

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« Reply #22 on: <08-09-15/0102:40> »
Regeneration wouldn't help with the effects of CFD, but it would help purge the nanites, and any 'ware supporting them.

As for the magic route, part of the reason you can't target the nanites well is because they're tech, and magic doesn't do well with tech. Nanoplasmosis, on the other hand, is alive. A health spell would probably be the way to go about it, targeting the nanoplasmosis prior to infection, with the spell either being sustained or quickened. Cast on a vial or syringe full of the stuff, and keep the spell going.
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #23 on: <08-09-15/0334:30> »
Like I said, I think CFD is just a symptom of a larger issue.  The prevalence of nanites in society create the vulnerabilities.  And, while I can accept nanites tailored to increase that vulnerability, I do not believe that nanites can host the virus coding.  That's where the wireless matrix comes into play.  While I believe that there are many more people out there with acute symptoms,  full blown headcases have been hacked by someone to program the victims just like Programmable ASSIST Biofeedback subjects.  The ones you hear about have improper programming.  The ones we don't hear about are the dangerous ones.  They have been suborned so subtly that nobody has noticed the change. 

Regeneration can halt and eject the nanites.  However, if done too late, the brain would already be susceptible.  To stop the programming, matrix access must be terminated.  Once full programming is complete, the nanites and the matrix don't matter.  Victims are time bombs waiting for something to trigger their programming.  That tech has been around for decades, the difference is that now it can be done remotely and on a Wie scale.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #24 on: <08-09-15/0630:34> »
Well, it's a great theory.  Falls apart on the back end - the part where the game writers are telling you OOCly what's going on - but if it were just a matter of in-universe conversations, sure.
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Mirikon

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« Reply #25 on: <08-09-15/2307:25> »
What Wyrm said. We already know what is going on and how it is happening, Joe. The only thing no one (outside the writers) knows is how to stop it.
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CitizenJoe

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« Reply #26 on: <08-10-15/0047:08> »
Yea, I don't know exactly what the writers said was going on, but I get the feeling that they are going with nanites holding the programming.  I'm ok with people thinking that is what is happening, but putting that much computer power into nanites is a bad idea from a power creep standpoint. You don't want to set that precedent.

Wakshaani

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« Reply #27 on: <08-10-15/0438:53> »
Individual nanites don't hold that kind of information. It's more of a combination of The Network and Matrix-aligned "Cloud computing" ... each nanite has a teensy nugget, which is similar to a single brain cell. When a critical mass is reached, they can communicate with one another and start having a semblance of a mind. This give sthem enough computing power to move up to the brain and start a re-write, downloading a  teensy part of the personality as they "re-code" the brain. The more nanites present, the faster this rewrite can go. In essence, you're moving water from a lake to a bucket one eyedropper at a time. Once the full rewrite's done, the entity's no longer in the Matrix at all.

(Or, rather, that particular copy isn't. Each individual Monad has been copied, or partially copied, several dozen times now.)

Now, the BIG problem is when naites from two different Monad clusters are both in a body. If the "Steve" Monad and the "Kevin" Monad are both inside the body, they're each trying to code the brain with their sourcecode, overlapping one another's work. You can see what happens in this case in Boston.

CitizenJoe

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« Reply #28 on: <08-10-15/1122:11> »
That isn't functionally different from what I described.  Create a vulnerability, reprogram the person, cut them loose.

The difference is that I'm suggesting only a simple function of the nanites rather than giving them some sort of collective intelligence.   The suggested vulnerability creating nanites were some of the original stuff designed by Trans Neuronet when cyberware was first introduced.  It was the interface between the brain and the hardware.  The new stuff, which I'm claiming is a vector and not the virus itself, expands on that concept and links the subjects to the greater device of "The Matrix" rather than something directly attached.

I'm suggesting that the greater problem is essentially nanite pollution to which people have different reactions.  I'm also suggesting that some people are weaponizing that pollution and the vulnerabilities caused by it.  This isn't a problem with a single smoking gun.   

Lorebane24

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« Reply #29 on: <08-10-15/1414:40> »
Wow, there's a lot more here than the last time I checked in.  I thought people had stopped reading this one.

I went ahead and picked up Lockdown, and Wyrm was right.  Probably my favorite SR5 book to date.  One thing I'm still a little fuzzy on.  So I get that this thing in Boston was an attempt to put Cerberus into Eliohan, but how did Deus get into the mix?  I see his name coming up in the book, but I can't find much more than "Deus is one of the AIs in there."  Did Pax have something to do with it?  I only came into SR during 4th ed, so I don't know a ton about her, just that she was a former Deus otaku and now she's a dissonant technomancer who got herself into the R&D of the Dicken Program (Or was it Project Vulcan?)
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