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Active Hardwires vs. Activsofts

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Hobbes

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« Reply #15 on: (22:08:21/07-07-15) »
1. Game balance.  More flexible has to cost more somehow.  Doesn't have to make sense, that's just a bonus when it happens. 

2.  To make you ask questions. 

Wakshaani

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« Reply #16 on: (22:18:15/07-07-15) »
A small conflation.

You can run an ActiveSoft in one of two ways.

1) Take a Skilljack, and Skillwires, OR
2) Take Active Hardwires

In either case, they can run only an ActiveSoft equal to their lowest level (Thus, a rating 4 Skilljack and a Rating 2 Skillwires, or 2 Jack 4 Wires, would only allow you to run them at a rating of 2.)

The difference is that Hardwires have the chip effectively 'welded' in place and it can't be changed, while Skillwires allow you to just take the chip out and stick another one in to do something different.

NOW, as for why the WIRES cost 4K while the CHIP costs 5K?

Think of it in terms of a video game. The disc costs pennies to make, but the game that's ON teh disc took millions of dollars of work to assemble.

Skillwires, same thing. The wiring and surgical implanation has one cost, but the PROGRAMMING has another.

Doe sthat make it more clear for you?

Wakshaani

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« Reply #17 on: (22:21:50/07-07-15) »
Oh, and a bonus round. It didn't make it into teh book, but you can get a licensing fee (of sorts) on teh software, for example for a factory, that allows you to replicate it for your workers instead of buying hundreds of the same program. So, you can plug Hardwires into your workers for, say, ten grand, drop in the licensed software, and send 'em right to work. Industrial-level purchases are things most Runners never do, but for a big enough factory, it can save you a fortune.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #18 on: (22:55:33/07-07-15) »
Wait so, is a skillchip an added cost to a Active Hardwire, or does it come with it?
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jim1701

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« Reply #19 on: (23:08:12/07-07-15) »
Wait so, is a skillchip an added cost to a Active Hardwire, or does it come with it?

I certainly hope not or else that takes Hardwires from moderately decent equipment to bottom of the pile junk.

Wakshaani

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« Reply #20 on: (23:17:45/07-07-15) »
Wait so, is a skillchip an added cost to a Active Hardwire, or does it come with it?

Added to the cost. It does *not* come with it. Getting teh system PLUS the software for less than the software would just be silly. :)

Hardwires are about one seventh the cost of a Skilljack + Skillwire combination, but you only get ONE skillsoft, ever, for it.

So, a better deal if you just want one or two skills, but not so much if you want several.

Again, it's primarily for factory workers and the like. (Or for a crime syndicate to choose somebody loyal and turn them into medical support easily.)

jim1701

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« Reply #21 on: (23:54:45/07-07-15) »
54k for a single rating 6 skill I can't change is a little too steep for me. 

Wakshaani

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« Reply #22 on: (00:11:33/07-08-15) »
54K = 27 Karma, vs the 42 it would cost to take it normally, and you can have no skill this morning and Rating 6 that afternoon, BUT, it'll cost you some Essence.

It's a close thing.

Rooks

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« Reply #23 on: (02:21:59/07-08-15) »
54k for a single rating 6 skill I can't change is a little too steep for me.
wait so you have to buy the hardwires AND the skill soft?

jim1701

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« Reply #24 on: (02:52:39/07-08-15) »
54k for a single rating 6 skill I can't change is a little too steep for me.
wait so you have to buy the hardwires AND the skill soft?

Evidently. :(

Stoneglobe

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« Reply #25 on: (07:14:25/07-08-15) »
To me as both a player and GM it makes perfect sense that you would have to buy the software as well.

With skill hardwires you are buying the hardware required to run the uploaded software. As this hardware is fixed to a single skill the costs (both essence and financial) are dramatically reduced when compared with the more flexible hardware available (combination of skilljack ans skillwires). The purchase cost of the software (skillsoft) for both systems is the same.

At character creation the cost breakdown is (working on rating 6 which seems to be the sticking point):

Skill Hardwires Rating 6

Essence: 0.3
Nuyen: 24000
Karma: 0
Software: 30000

Total Cost:

Essence: 0.3
Nuyen: 54000
Karma: 0

Overall not a bad investment (it's not ridiculously cheap thus avoiding powerplayer/munchkinism but still provides an additional rtg 6 skill for less than the karma cost of buying that skill) to get an additional active skill at rating 6. Also very much easier to achieve in game as the maximum availability is 12 on this build.

The downside being that this skill can never be changed.
The upside being this never needs to be wireless so can't be hacked.

Skilljack and skillwires Rating 6

Skilljack
Essence: 0.6
Nuyen: 120000
Karma: 0

Skillwires
Essence: 0.6
Nuyen: 120000
Karma: 10 (Restricted Gear Quality)

Overall:
Essence: 1.2
Nuyen: 240000 + cost of each piece of software
Karma: 10 (Restricted Gear Quality)

If you've got the spare essence, nuyen and karma obviously this is a much better system to install due to the ability to change software as required but the cost is almost prohibitive (again avoiding powerplayer/munchkinism) and is certainly very difficult to install after character creation as the Restricted Gear Quality actually provides no help as it's only good for items up to availability 18 and even then adds 30% to the cost.

The upside is that once you manage to get this installed and access to all of the software you require you truely are a Jack Of All Trades

The downside is that there is always the temptation to run this system in wireless mode due to the significant benefits on offer as well as the potential for utilising the online skillsoft libraries meaning tht your system is now venerable to hacking and you losing that important skill at just the wrong moment.

Overall I believe that these systems are actually very balanced and fair in terms of their relative costs, advantages and disadvantages.
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #26 on: (08:38:18/07-08-15) »
Correct!

It's a battle of efficiency, where the cost of wires + skillsoft vs buying a skill with Karma should be a cost-benefit analysis that, ultimately, revolves around one question: How valuable is your Essence? The original mix has Activesofts a touch cheaper, so that you'd at least break even at all levels, rather than as it stands now, where you pay a touch more for Rating 1 Activesofts than you do fo just buying a skill. The current chart looks, roughly, like so:

(Rating/Karma/Karma in Nuyen)
LINGUASOFTS
1/1/0.5
2/2/1
3/6/1.5
4/10/2
5/15/2.5
6/21/3

KNOWSOFTS
1/1/1
2/3/2
3/6/3
4/10/4
5/15/5
6/21/6

ACTIVESOFTS
1/2/2.5
2/6/5
3/12/7.5
4/20/10
5/30/12.5
6/42/15

SKILLJACK
1/X/5
2/X/10
3/X/15
4/X/20
5/X/25
6/X/30

SKILLWIRES
1/X/10
2/X/20
3/X/30
4/X/40
5/X/50
6/X/60

Using these charts, you can start finding the break point ... at break point, the cost of buying things with Karma, or via SKillsofts, is the same(ish), while every 'soft you buy after that is effectively profit, IE getting a skill at a cost lower than the Karma cost. The initial investment in a Skilljack/Skilllwires servs as a 'buffer' to make the entry expensive, but do-able, but those that lean heavily on the tech will see an eventual upside.

On a Skilljack 1, you never see a Break Point on Knowsofts, but break even at 20 Language (1) 'softs.
Skilljack 2, 10 Knowledges or 5 Languages
Skilljack 3, 5 Knowledges or 3 Languages
Skilljack 4, 3 Kowledges or 2 Languages
Skilljack 5, 2 Knowledges or 2 Languages
Skillhjack 6, 2 Knowledges or 2 Languages

On Skillwires (Which also require a Skilljack whose cost is NOT reflected here!)
Skillwires 1 never gets a Break Point
Skillwires 2 has a break point of 20 Active Skills
SKillwires 3, 6 Active Skills
Skillwires 4, 4 Active Skills
Skillwires 5, 3 Active Skills
Skillwires 6, 2 Active Skills

Still not *quite* where I wanted, but almost.

Hardwires, both Knowledge and Active, are almost always 'profitable'... I think the Break Point's at 2, but I don't have that chart handy I'm afraid.


adzling

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« Reply #27 on: (10:03:23/07-08-15) »
thank you, this makes sense now.
I was having issues trying to figure out how the software + hardware + surgery was cheaper than the software alone...

So the karma cost for a level 6 skill is 42.
While the karma equivalent cost for rating 6 skillwires and skilljack is 90 with each rating 6 activesoft's karma equivalent cost 15 karma.

Maximum # of rating 6 activesofts you can load at once = 3.

the karma equivalent to purchase 3 rating 6 activesofts and the rating 6 skillwires and skilljack to run them = 135.

whereas 3 level 6 skills = 126 karma.

So your paying a slight premium for the flexibility of the system, although the drawback is you lose the ability to spend edge on those tests.
Bonus if your a technomancer you can stick a sprite in the system and get an extra 3-4 dice quite easily.

Now if you install a rating 6 chipjack at $6k/ 3 karma you have now raised the max number of rating 6 activesofts you can install from 3 to 6.
assuming you max out your activesofts you start to see a karma efficiency:


the karma equivalent to purchase 6 rating 6 activesofts, rating 6 skillwires, skilljack and chipjack to run them = 183
the cost to get those skills organically = 252


Wait so, is a skillchip an added cost to a Active Hardwire, or does it come with it?

Added to the cost. It does *not* come with it. Getting teh system PLUS the software for less than the software would just be silly. :)
« Last Edit: (11:18:02/07-08-15) by adzling »

adzling

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« Reply #28 on: (10:59:06/07-08-15) »
Stone just an FYI the cost of Skilljack was reduced from $20k per rating to $10k per rating in Chrome Flesh.

So $180,000 for a skillwire rating 6 system with rating 6 skilljack.

Hobbes

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« Reply #29 on: (11:14:27/07-08-15) »
Wait so, is a skillchip an added cost to a Active Hardwire, or does it come with it?

Added to the cost. It does *not* come with it. Getting teh system PLUS the software for less than the software would just be silly. :)

Hardwires are about one seventh the cost of a Skilljack + Skillwire combination, but you only get ONE skillsoft, ever, for it.

So, a better deal if you just want one or two skills, but not so much if you want several.

Again, it's primarily for factory workers and the like. (Or for a crime syndicate to choose somebody loyal and turn them into medical support easily.)

It didn't work that way in other editions, and the current rules don't imply you need to purchase the Skillsoft in addition to the Hardwires at all.  And as other posters have stated, if you have to buy both they go from "okay for some builds" to stuff a PC will likely never take.  Feel free to add to your errata pile  ;) 

And your balance math is a bit off because you can't equate a Hardwire skill of 6 to a "real" skill of 6.  You can't edge a Hardwire, and you can't improve a Hardwire unless you completely replace it.  Those are non-trivial things.  You need to compare costs between Hardwires and Skillwires (and skilljacks and skillsofts and whatnot) so you're comparing Apples to Apples. 

Keep in mind out of chargen its 124K, 20k a month, and .9 Essence for "Every skill in the game at 4" with the package and a subscription.  How many Rating 4 Hardwires is that if you have to purchase the skill softs?  4 maybe?  (AFB so this is from memory here, please correct my math if I'm wrong)