NEWS

What happened to official Errata?

  • 59 Replies
  • 13662 Views

Herr Brackhaus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3041
« Reply #45 on: (02:55:43/07-11-16) »
To be honest, 5E has been one long stream of disappointments.
I wouldn't go that far, personally, and I've thoroughly enjoyed the Season 5 and 6 Missions. But, and this is a big one for me, the lack of Errata after several official statements to the effect of "It's coming" is inexcusable, and not helped by the continued push to produce more paid content. I've stopped buying books other than Missions until Errata that fixes the core rule books issues is released, personally.

At this point, the only way I can see to fix 5E is to just simply let it die and have 6E come out, with something closer to 4E's rules.
I for one really hope they don't do this; 5th works well enough, more so than 4th in my opinion. Sure, there are internal inconsistencies particular, in my opinion, around the Matrix, but nothing that can't be fixed. Scrapping the whole thing and starting over is a no-starter for me; I also have zero faith that Catalyst is the company to do this, as evidenced by the shameless copy-paste from prior editions that are already prolific in 5th.

Dinendae

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
« Reply #46 on: (05:51:40/07-11-16) »
To be honest, 5E has been one long stream of disappointments.
I wouldn't go that far, personally, and I've thoroughly enjoyed the Season 5 and 6 Missions. But, and this is a big one for me, the lack of Errata after several official statements to the effect of "It's coming" is inexcusable, and not helped by the continued push to produce more paid content. I've stopped buying books other than Missions until Errata that fixes the core rule books issues is released, personally.

The thing is though that Missions has had to go out of its way to patch things which normally aren't working in the regular rules, which is why it's generally enjoyable in 5th edition. Kudos to the Missions group for working hard to fix what's broken so that it can be used in Missions games, but they shouldn't have had to do so to this extent. Even then, there's only so much the Missions team has been able to do.

Missions games were the only Shadowrun games I could get in this area, and I was happy with that, but due to the state of the rules there hasn't been a Missions game in this area since November of 2014. Last month was the annual gaming convention held locally, which was in its third year, and it's the first year it didn't have at least one Shadowrun Missions game listed. No one, including the GMs, want the hassle anymore.

The deal with the errata has gone beyond ridiculous now; it was a problem in SR4, SR4A, and now 5th. First we were told that it takes time because they have to discuss errata changes and then test them out to see if the changes are balanced. Over three years of testing for some of the errata for the original books? Really? Then we were told that they didn't have the time/resources/whatever to put the errata in a nice pdf layout yet. Come on now, most of us, if not all by this point, would be happy for a plain text wordpad/notepad document with errata.

At this point, the only way I can see to fix 5E is to just simply let it die and have 6E come out, with something closer to 4E's rules.
I for one really hope they don't do this; 5th works well enough, more so than 4th in my opinion. Sure, there are internal inconsistencies particular, in my opinion, around the Matrix, but nothing that can't be fixed.


At the very core of 5th, I like what they were trying to do. I like the priority tables being available again, although I wish it was a bit closer to the last version of it. I also like the alternate creation methods being available, especially the life modules (although if you're going to have life modules or something similar, that really need to come out in the second book at the latest so that all archetypes can benefit in the following rules expansion books. I like the idea of limits. I liked the thought that RCCs and especially cyberdecks were going to have value again, until rules came out that largely erased that thought.


Scrapping the whole thing and starting over is a no-starter for me; I also have zero faith that Catalyst is the company to do this, as evidenced by the shameless copy-paste from prior editions that are already prolific in 5th.


I would change the second part of that to "I also have zero faith that Catalyst's Shadowrun employees is the team to do this..." As has been talked about a lot in these forums, Catalyst's Battletech team doesn't seem to have these issues. When problems arise with their rules, they work with the players to get errata turned out. Just to clarify though: When I spoke of the Shadowrun team I am not talking about the freelancers (those people have gone above and beyond in trying to help out, in my opinion), but rather the editors and line developer (and whomever else might be be involved above the Freelancer level).


I believe I mentioned once before that I was thinking of abandoning Shadowrun, except for the novels and enhanced fiction; over the last few weeks I've pretty much committed to that idea. I may pick up the Tir book (pdf only, so that it'll be updated when it eventually does get errata), and I will get the Tarot deck (if for no other reason than the incredible art), but other than the novels and enhanced fiction I'm pretty much giving up on Shadowrun finally. I'll get my cyberpunk fix via novels, video games, and other systems.  :-\
« Last Edit: (05:54:12/07-11-16) by Dinendae »

adzling

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3215
  • Telling it like it is
    • Building Better Security
« Reply #47 on: (11:39:55/07-11-16) »
It's very clear that the line manager for Srun is, to put it mildly, not very good.

And that Catalyst has fallen and can't get up/ doesn't care to.

Irn0rchid

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 538
« Reply #48 on: (11:47:26/07-11-16) »
What amazes me is that the line editor is still the line editor. How much ill will and hard feelings do you have to engender in the community before getting fired/demoted?

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 878
« Reply #49 on: (00:12:16/07-12-16) »
To be honest, 5E has been one long stream of disappointments. I stopped buying the Missions and other adventures entirely, and only now get the occasional book to keep up with the lore. At this point, the only way I can see to fix 5E is to just simply let it die and have 6E come out, with something closer to 4E's rules.
4th + (5th * 2/5) = 6th  ;D
Yeah, TMs got thrown in the cell with Bubba the Love Troll and sandpaper for lube.
there is autosofts for everything  8)

Dinendae

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
« Reply #50 on: (01:31:16/07-12-16) »
It's very clear that the line manager for Srun is, to put it mildly, not very good.

And that the Shadowrun line has fallen and can't get up/ doesn't care to.


Fixed that last bit for you! From everything I've been able to tell, the Battletech line seems to be doing well. I could be wrong, as I have no idea what their financials are like, but at least Battletech gets the support it needs in the form of errata and processes that appear to be working decently. Shadowrun not so much.


The thing that Catalyst as a whole needs to take flak for (and deservedly so) is the continued horrid state of the BattleCorps/BattleShop's terrible track record with shipping physical copies of books. I get that bad things happened in the past, and someone quit, but years later we shouldn't still be seeing people coming to the forums trying to find out what happened to their order six months, a year, or even longer after the physical book came out. There's really no excuse anymore for that to be a continued problem.

Dinendae

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
« Reply #51 on: (03:48:57/07-12-16) »
What amazes me is that the line editor is still the line editor. How much ill will and hard feelings do you have to engender in the community before getting fired/demoted?


You are assuming he can be fired/demoted/whatever. It all really depends on his relationship to the company; for all we know he could be part owner or have some contractual legalese making it hard or nearly impossible to do so. Then again it could very well be (as others have stated in the past) that Catalyst's management really only cares about Battletech. /shrug  ???


Whatever the case might be, I don't foresee any needed changes happening in any reasonable time frame, if at all, and I can't really justify spending money on rulebooks I can't even use due to no one wanting to play Shadowrun anymore because of the state it's been in for years. Godspeed to those that are willing to stick it out and can still get games, but there are too many good games out there vying for my money that I can get to play games with.


I've walked away from other games which had settings I absolutely loved, such as Rifts, because I couldn't stand the way the company was run (although Savage Worlds is coming out with its own version of Rifts which I will probably try out). Wondering why someone's still employed doesn't really do much to help yourself, all you can do is ask yourself: "Is this still worth my time and money?"

Novocrane

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2225
« Reply #52 on: (05:59:33/07-12-16) »
Quote
What happened to official Errata?
Nothing?

Terrible joke, and likely inaccurate, I know. ;D

PiXeL01

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2259
  • Sheltering Orks in Osaka
« Reply #53 on: (08:52:56/07-12-16) »
The planned errata was errata'd out of the product schedule
If Tom Brady’s a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Irn0rchid

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 538
« Reply #54 on: (09:11:27/07-12-16) »
What amazes me is that the line editor is still the line editor. How much ill will and hard feelings do you have to engender in the community before getting fired/demoted?


You are assuming he can be fired/demoted/whatever. It all really depends on his relationship to the company; for all we know he could be part owner or have some contractual legalese making it hard or nearly impossible to do so. Then again it could very well be (as others have stated in the past) that Catalyst's management really only cares about Battletech. /shrug  ???

I was curious, so I did some quick looking. He was apparently hired on the spot at Gen Con in 2009. He might have some ownership stake or something now, but it doesn't seem like he did originally. Prior to that he'd done some freelance writing and editing, this is his first 'line editor' gig. Although you'd think after 6+ years he'd figure it out. :P "I didn’t have a plan in place for Fifth Edition four years ago—in fact, I generally threatened to punch anyone who said the words “Fifth Edition” to me until I got a better understanding of what it meant to be line developer. "

Amusingly, when Catalyst Labs was formed by In Media Res to handle Shadowrun and Battletech, their press release had this to say: "InMediaRes Productions, LLC, has dedicated itself to immediately addressing recent problems, such as missed release dates. The formation of Catalyst Game Labs, which will focus on operations and production, is a necessary first step." As well as "Catalyst Game Labs will quickly demonstrate our dedication to providing high quality products ”licensed and original”in a timely manner to the community." On May 17, 2007. Bang up job!
« Last Edit: (09:13:14/07-12-16) by Irn0rchid »

adzling

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 3215
  • Telling it like it is
    • Building Better Security
« Reply #55 on: (14:05:36/07-12-16) »
This pretty much says it all.


I was curious, so I did some quick looking. He was apparently hired on the spot at Gen Con in 2009.
« Last Edit: (20:26:52/07-12-16) by adzling »

Patrick Goodman

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2100
  • Fixing the fixless since 2016
    • Azziewatch
« Reply #56 on: (15:12:24/07-12-16) »
Jason was already on board at the time of the Great Unpleasantness, as I recall.
Former Shadowrun Errata Coordinator

Dinendae

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
« Reply #57 on: (00:44:49/07-13-16) »
I was curious, so I did some quick looking. He was apparently hired on the spot at Gen Con in 2009. He might have some ownership stake or something now, but it doesn't seem like he did originally. Prior to that he'd done some freelance writing and editing, this is his first 'line editor' gig. Although you'd think after 6+ years he'd figure it out. :P "I didn’t have a plan in place for Fifth Edition four years ago—in fact, I generally threatened to punch anyone who said the words “Fifth Edition” to me until I got a better understanding of what it meant to be line developer. "

Amusingly, when Catalyst Labs was formed by In Media Res to handle Shadowrun and Battletech, their press release had this to say: "InMediaRes Productions, LLC, has dedicated itself to immediately addressing recent problems, such as missed release dates. The formation of Catalyst Game Labs, which will focus on operations and production, is a necessary first step." As well as "Catalyst Game Labs will quickly demonstrate our dedication to providing high quality products ”licensed and original”in a timely manner to the community." On May 17, 2007. Bang up job!


To be fair, there were massive issues that popped up with all of the troubles just a couple of years after that 2007 mission statement. There were a lot of statements made when it happened, from all sides, but since I had no inside knowledge I've tried to give them the benefit of the doubt on it. Something got screwed up royally, and it screwed up everything else for quite some time afterwards.


As I recall, that was about the time that the Battleshop went down the toilet; from what I saw on the subject, it was understandable why that happened. I am less sure if there's been another batch of issues with the Battleshop a couple years ago, or if it's still that same issue lingering on. That it is still a major problem this much later is troubling. Likewise with the errata issue. From what I've seen posted, vanilla SR4 had issues with errata (came out in 2005), SR4A (when I came back to the game) came out in 2009 and had issues with getting errata, and then 2013 saw the release of SR5 which continues the errata problems.


People may want to, but you really can't count any vanilla SR4 errata problems against the current team, even if there are people working on the line now from back before the troubles. The company got hammered hard, and it's frankly a miracle that it continued on. I was even willing to overlook errata issues with SR5 for quite some time, as I figured that since it was trying out a new(ish) system it might take some time to shake out the bugs. Here we are a couple months shy of the three year mark for the SR5 core rulebook, and it's still an issue. Except for the German edition, apparently.


That's the real kick in the pants; Pegasus gets errata feedback from Catalyst, and can apparently put out errata. At first I just shrugged it off and thought that they got to do their own thing. Unfortunately, information from a recent post says that Pegasus still needs to get the OK from Catalyst to make changes. If so, then that means that Pegasus is sending in their errata changes to someone with some kind of authority at Catalyst, that person (or someone above them) is eventually green-lighting the changes, and then Pegasus puts out the errata.


Why is it so hard to get a text document in English for these approved changes from Pegasus, have Catalysts editors and line developer (or whomever green lights errata) give it a quick look over to make sure it contains the changes previously discussed, and then release that as errata for the English version? Someone, somewhere is getting assigned to produce the original errata. Someone at Catalyst is looking it over and saying yes or no. Someone at Pegasus then is taking the approved errata and updating the German edition.


Is the relationship between Catalyst and Pegasus so toxic that Pegasus would be unwilling to comply if Catalyst asked them to send a text document with the approved errata changes? For that matter, why aren't these approved changes being saved on the Catalyst side of things? At some point during the process they have to be in English, so that Catalyst can look them over and approve them. Is no one keeping a record of these?



Jason was already on board at the time of the Great Unpleasantness, as I recall.


I believe that's correct. From what I recall of articles concerning that mess, his name was mentioned. I think that was around 2010(ish) when that all blew up?

« Last Edit: (00:49:01/07-13-16) by Dinendae »

Patrick Goodman

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2100
  • Fixing the fixless since 2016
    • Azziewatch
« Reply #58 on: (01:06:18/07-13-16) »
Why is it so hard to get a text document in English for these approved changes from Pegasus, have Catalysts editors and line developer (or whomever green lights errata) give it a quick look over to make sure it contains the changes previously discussed, and then release that as errata for the English version? Someone, somewhere is getting assigned to produce the original errata. Someone at Catalyst is looking it over and saying yes or no. Someone at Pegasus then is taking the approved errata and updating the German edition.
That's something I'm working on, actually.
Former Shadowrun Errata Coordinator

Dinendae

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
« Reply #59 on: (01:22:17/07-13-16) »
Why is it so hard to get a text document in English for these approved changes from Pegasus, have Catalysts editors and line developer (or whomever green lights errata) give it a quick look over to make sure it contains the changes previously discussed, and then release that as errata for the English version? Someone, somewhere is getting assigned to produce the original errata. Someone at Catalyst is looking it over and saying yes or no. Someone at Pegasus then is taking the approved errata and updating the German edition.
That's something I'm working on, actually.


I saw that after I had made that last rather lengthy post of mine! Dang my slow typing (or perhaps not; I think we may have posted around the same time)! Still this is very, very good news! Hopefully I there will eventually be Shadowrun games in this area again! For those that missed it, see here: http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=24481.new#new

The announcement does make what I was asking for largely irrelevant now, but I'm very ok with that as I think this is going to be far better for the line. I would be doing the 'happy dance' now, except I have no dancing skills. None. Not even large quantities of alcohol can convince me otherwise (seriously, it's that terrible).  :-[