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Neat combo?

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Bulshock

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« Reply #30 on: <07-23-15/0410:22> »
I would second the request on a clarification of Redliner affecting the character's stats, or the character's cyberlimbs. As it reads now, it seems like an expensive chunk of karma for a fairly minimal gain.

Oh dear. Didn't see that. The intent is It should affect your overall attributes (or natural attribute, if you want to call it that), NOT only the limb attributes.

Quoted the spot here.  If you want to read the original it's on pg. 7 of the Errata Thread.

I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #31 on: <07-23-15/0525:23> »
Yeah... it affecting Natural Attributes to shore up Movement & Physical Limit was a trash quality. It only effecting cyberlimbs not only manages to be worse but easily one of the worst qualities in the game. Affecting both makes it a decent quality for a niche character.

astaroth999

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« Reply #32 on: <07-23-15/0834:20> »
Yeah... it affecting Natural Attributes to shore up Movement & Physical Limit was a trash quality. It only effecting cyberlimbs not only manages to be worse but easily one of the worst qualities in the game. Affecting both makes it a decent quality for a niche character.

Does the max aug of +4 applies to cyberlimbs? i thought it only applies to ware augmentation to your natural stats.

Assume drugs are not available in your game due to gm disapproval. Would redliner be better in your opinion? If not, can you perhaps build us a sam with 20dp range and melee and 11DV punch (assume no forbidden item), high soak dice in the 20+ and no other stats lower than 2.

To be honest, In terms of soaking damage, monowhip 12dv -8AP should cause the same damage as 14dv -2AP. The 2dp from reach is really mitigated by the fact that exotic weapon skills does not have specialization, which you can get from the unarmed skill. Unless your game is full of rating 5 and 6 elite forces, its pretty much the same.



« Last Edit: <07-23-15/0853:41> by astaroth999 »

Bulshock

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« Reply #33 on: <07-23-15/1231:34> »
Not sure.  I could see it bypassing that as cyberlimbs already use their own rules.  But at the same time I could also see it not bypassing it for balance purposes. 

Xenon

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« Reply #34 on: <07-23-15/1253:55> »
Does the max aug of +4 applies to cyberlimbs?
No, [at least in in core] it is rules legal to have a natural agility of 1 and a cybernetic right arm with agility 3, customized by 3 to your metatype maximum of 6 and from there enhanced another 3 points for a total of 9 (which is +8 over your natural attribute rating in this example).

This is part why cyberlimbs in SR5 actually benefit deckers more than they benefit street samurai (which might be the original iconic archetype for cyberlimbs).

Bulshock

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« Reply #35 on: <07-23-15/1303:41> »
Actually... depending on how your group rules things for full body replacement, they can be quite good for a street sammy.  However you'd be looking being a fully body replacement.  And if your group doesn't do some house rules on it you'll be slow moving and low phys limit.  Because right now by RAW Cyberlegs don't change your base movement speed at all without something installed in them (Liminal Body, Digitigrade, Skates, Skimmers).  I've seen suggestions that if you have a Torso replacement with full arms and legs, that you should be able to use your average body strength (Arms, Legs, Head, Torso) to calculate Phys Limit.  And almost everyone I've talked to has said that ruling that Cyberlegs agility is used for moving with them.

As for the max aug of +4... I think they were asking about +4 to the limb (i.e. Enhancement 3 plus Redliner +2 for four limbs would be 5 and if that would be legal or if it would max at +4).

Novocrane

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« Reply #36 on: <07-23-15/2049:23> »
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And if your group doesn't do some house rules on it you'll be slow moving and low phys limit.
You need house rules for that to specifically be the case, too. "When a particular limb is used for a test" doesn't cover non-test uses of attributes, but  "in any other case" should.

Bulshock

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« Reply #37 on: <07-23-15/2119:39> »
The problem comes with the Test wording.  It's quite possible, probable even, it's supposed to be intended that legs do work for base movement speed, but as it's written it doesn't.  Technically by the wording you wouldn't use the Strength in your cyberlimbs for Recoil, and the only reason you would use it for Damage is that it's part of a test (limb was used for the test so you use it's attributes sort of thing).  Feels very much like it wasn't intended to be that way, at least to me.

Actually, I just re-read the section on cyberlimbs.  The copy I have doesn't seem to say that they can't count for Phys Limit, only that you use the Attributes of the Limb for tests with that Limb or the average for tests that use more then one.  And the section on Enhancements to them specifically uses two +3 Strength Enhancements as something you can't do, not because it would be more then +4, but because it's two Enhancement upgrades to the same stat.  I am now more confused then I was before, because by this reading of it, using the Cyberlimb Attributes for Phys Limit with tests that use that limb seems to be RAW.  Or I'm really out of it.

astaroth999

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« Reply #38 on: <07-23-15/2200:53> »
Totally agreed. I always feel the cyberlimbs ruling were a tad bit too ambiguous and often require houseruling to make senses.

I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #39 on: <07-23-15/2331:18> »
Does the max aug of +4 applies to cyberlimbs?
No, [at least in in core] it is rules legal to have a natural agility of 1 and a cybernetic right arm with agility 3, customized by 3 to your metatype maximum of 6 and from there enhanced another 3 points for a total of 9 (which is +8 over your natural attribute rating in this example).

This is part why cyberlimbs in SR5 actually benefit deckers more than they benefit street samurai (which might be the original iconic archetype for cyberlimbs).

Yes Cyberlimbs are different from Natural Attributes so you can have Cyberlimbs more than 4 points higher than Natural Attributes. The +4 maximum should be applied to the Cyberlimbs Maximum Attribute Enhancement as well. I'll go point that out in the Errata thread where we are clarifying what the Quality means since it wasn't explicitly explained the first time.

Edit: found it...post from the freelancer.
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Also: Is the bonus from Redliner an Augmentation Bonus, or just an "Enhancement"?

I don't want to open by books, so are you asking if it counts towards/can be limited by the Augmented Maximum Attributes? If so, yes, it can cap. You cannot go over the Augmented Maximums.

Totally agreed. I always feel the cyberlimbs ruling were a tad bit too ambiguous and often require houseruling to make senses.


2 Legs could qualify for counting for Movement & a Torso/4 Limbs could be reasonably use Physical Limit as Houserules. But considering what Redliner is intended to do means that it is clear that Movement & Physical Limit isn't supposed to be affected by Cyberlimbs. Giving the bonus to Str/Agi for 4 full limbs really only helps Movement & Physical Limit.
« Last Edit: <07-24-15/0243:52> by I_AM_ZHOUL!!! »

Novocrane

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« Reply #40 on: <07-23-15/2335:43> »
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Giving the bonus to Str/Agi for 4 full limbs really only helps Movement & Physical Limit.
And averaging, when using 4 limbs + natural torso.

I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #41 on: <07-24-15/0210:03> »
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Giving the bonus to Str/Agi for 4 full limbs really only helps Movement & Physical Limit.
And averaging, when using 4 limbs + natural torso.

For what... Lifting?

Rooks

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« Reply #42 on: <07-24-15/0215:21> »
problem is cyberlimbs averaging has never been addressed even in past editions

I_AM_ZHOUL!!!

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« Reply #43 on: <07-24-15/0245:50> »
problem is cyberlimbs averaging has never been addressed even in past editions

Cause you rarely average... you generally use the lowest stat involved.

Rooks

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« Reply #44 on: <07-24-15/0304:45> »
no theres never been a side bar that lists what you use when when using what cyber limbs on what tests etc