[Triskavanski]

And then that is when we get into the wonderful world of no longer using what is written, and only what is assumed to be intended, often times things that are being assumed to be intended without thinking of the consequences or how everything interacts.

You asked before why would they make a skin link echo if trodes or datajack could do it, since they could do it for a few nuyen, while the skin link would take a lot of karma.

Well... Because it was an echo in 4e. Pretty much plain and simple. That, and over all, a whole lot of the cost vs reward doesn't play in very much with technomancers. 70 nuyen for a set of trodes, 240 nuyen for a program. Or 13+ karma each.

We've got an echo that uses two abilities from 4e in the same book. Heck, we don't actually even know if its the same freelancer from Core who wrote the rules in Data Trails. Likely not, as they didn't seem to try to clarify Mind over Machine, rather instead, they made their own echo with its own name that they had felt was the right way of running MoM, though in no point did it invalidate the previous one.

[Xenon]

TMs were given the Skinlink echo so they could have a way to directly connect to devices just like deckers. Something TMs normally cannot do.
They can't just connect their living persona through trodes into a device.


TMs were given the Resonance Program echo so they could have a way to run a cyberprogram just like deckers. Something TMs normally cannot do.
They cannot use their living persona to write a program on the fly to emulate a cyberprogram.


TMs were given the Mind over Machine echo (or what ever its been renamed to) so they could have a way to jump into devices equipped with rigger interface just like riggers. Something TMs normally cannot do.
They cannot just dive straight into a device with their living persona without it.


Now, personally I would not mind if TMs had the Skinlink echo functionality for free directly at chargen, that TMs automatically got one Resonance Program echo functionality for free each time they submerged, that a device would still have its device icon in the matrix even if someone form a persona on it and that a TM could slave Resonance rating x 3 devices she is the owner of directly to her living persona. Guess that is what house rules are for

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, that is all certainly rather sound, and when in doubt, I believe what Aaron said, so I believe there's no LP through a wire (why would it work on a jack if it doesn't on trodes?), but there is, indeed, an argument to be made about the nonexistence of such rules.
We're all just arguing for what we think makes more sense here.

[norskface]

Ok I write again XD

Well only a short one…

About your question why they put Skinlink in:
My assumption is not that they only made it to give TMs a way to directly connect with devices like Xenon thinks. In my mind its just to be able to still play the Fluff, since not everyone wants to play the cool Technomancer who then has to fall back an put an odd net of mash on his head or implant an Datajack and lose his Essence, when he actually thought of his character in being able to do this all without a device or wire. That it still cost Min. 13Points of Karma is kind of redicules to me and to many others, but that's another topic.
However the Skinlink still provides a TM with an advantage beyond the Fluff and that's the concealability.
Lets say I want to hack a guys Comlink, but its to good. So I ask him to show me his cool looking glasses which I found out are only rating 1. He gives it to me and I inspect it quite amazed and curious. Well with Trodes or a Datajack it would be almost impossible to now plug my wire into the Dataconnector, but since I do have Skinlink I hack his PAN with ease and the guy even didn't recognize.

I know there are phrases and sentences which are maybe misleading if you look at them to close, but may we fall back once more and ask us what was the overall intention about the book? What I found (and that fits especially for the Matrix in 5tth) is that the Writers planned to make the book simple and easy. It might has not worked out so well, but Im quite sure, that most of the things are meant like that, like you read them the first time. And if it is different intended they did highlight it.

With this assumption I may fall back on the other two topics which got discussed here:
TM and PAN: I was reading it firstly like that, that TM cant slave devices to them self. Devices are should be slaved to devices. So Im quite certain, the writers didn't plan to make the book very difficult and ruin the fun for a TM or make it ridiculously difficult for everyone to protect his stuff. Therefor every character can buy one or more Comlinks and just slave his devices to them. (If you can slave them to your Glasses, I didn't made my Mind up and also don't want to. )

And once more about TM and the Mind over Mashine echo:
It's a way for TM to become a Rig without losing Essence. They still could implant one and I gues gain the Benefits on their living Persona. What they cant do is getting an RCC and use it with their living Persona.
The Pain editor Echo works the same, you can buy it with Essence or with Karma….

However, I think everyone has now repeated his arguments over and over again and I don't believe anymore one of both “sides” will be convinced by the other. But for people who read this post and are interested in how they should play on their table have now enough facts or arguments to decide which side is more convincing to them and continue with their chosen way.

[Xenon]

And once more about TM and the Mind over Mashine echo:
It's a way for TM to become a Rig without losing Essence. They still could implant one and I gues gain the Benefits on their living Persona.

You believe a control rig device allow a TM to jump in....? While still using her deviceless living persona.....?

I begin to understand why you think they can also get a direct connection with their living persona by using trodes....


Let us simply agree to disagree

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

And once more about TM and the Mind over Mashine echo:
It's a way for TM to become a Rig without losing Essence. They still could implant one and I gues gain the Benefits on their living Persona.

You believe a control rig device allow a TM to jump in....? While still using her deviceless living persona.....?

I begin to understand why you think they can also get a direct connection with their living persona by using trodes....


Let us simply agree to disagree

Technomancers are undisputed the weakest characters in the game by Chargen. Needlessly making it harder on them isn't going to help... they need to rewrite the rules just to make them functional. To make a TMs brain count as a deck... then you can connect your devices to your mind & "load" your persona unto it. Giving them Skinlink as a starting ability will only help make them a more viable character...but still if someone wanted a Datajack for the data storage, if their mind counted as a deck then they get direct contact.

You are technically correct about every point you make... while also accurately diagnosing the problems those rules cause. Once it's established that Rules are causing problems, time to chuck those Rules. And not like the Master - Slave Device relationship that come about from people trying to string 6 different commlinks together with mods to make Cyberdecks. That's the Rules not working because people are trying to break the system.... technos are just jacked.

[Xenon]

That something is be weak might be great argument for a house rule, see my suggestions above, but using it as a base of argument on the authors real intent when the rule was written? Nah...

[Zweiblumen]

Well, that is all certainly rather sound, and when in doubt, I believe what Aaron said, so I believe there's no LP through a wire (why would it work on a jack if it doesn't on trodes?), but there is, indeed, an argument to be made about the nonexistence of such rules.
We're all just arguing for what we think makes more sense here.

This.  Lots and lots of this.

[Prætus]

Watch them go and add the Biological PAN rule like in Unwired in the ePub supplement for Data Trails.  That will nullify some of the argument here, I suppose.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

That something is be weak might be great argument for a house rule, see my suggestions above, but using it as a base of argument on the authors real intent when the rule was written? Nah...

I'm not saying that it was what the authors intended... the cut & paste mystical mumbo jumbo shows what they intended. The issue is that they FAILED to properly integrate TMs with 5th edition Matrix. Unless you are contending that the authors intended to make TMs the redheaded stepchildren of the new wireless world where they can't actually function the way they are described in the Fluff. I'd totally buy that theory on the basis that the new Matrix was designed to be actively hostile and extremely awkward for them to interact with except the Fluff doesn't support it. The Fluff portrays them in a certain way.... the Crunch is a failure in letting them actually do it. The Master-Slave devices rules are wonky but when TMs are added in then they just get chucked out. How are TMs supposed to be the wireless wizards when they can't even protect their own gear let alone anyone elses???

I'm a huge advocate for RAW & generally a pretty anti house rule guy.... but TMs are so bad they have to be house ruled to be functional. That's not acceptable... the TM Splatbook really needs to redefine the entire rule set concerning them.

[Xenon]

the Crunch is a failure in letting them actually do it.

Well, as I read it they can base a PAN around a commlink just fine.

If you rule that a TM cannot slave their devices to their commlink without also forming their persona on it then i would agree that something would be missing, but since rules for slaving a device to a master device seem to be deliberately vague (even in DT) I don't see why you anyone would willing want to add that restriction to begin with.

(Hell - if you take a very strict reading of the book then you cannot even form a persona on the master device in your PAN at all since that would turn the device into a Persona...).


And with the introduction of DT they can also establish a direct connection directly from their living persona to a device by getting the Skinlink echo and physically touch the device.