[Triskavanski]

Descrite tapping into devices without a whole bunch of wires or running wireless.

[Xenon]

Wonderful little falacy there. But its right there on page 232, data jacks have the ability to create a direct connection.

Connecting your brain to a device via a datajack does not give you a persona with a sleaze or attack rating to hack devices. It just give you DNI to the device over a wired link. You can for example use this direct connection to change mode of a device as a mental free action rather than a simple action. You can use this link to get information from your smartgun to your internal smartlink so you gain +2 accuracy and can use the onboard camera to fire around corners without taking the blind modifier. You can also use it to securely communicate with another person and without noise interference.

A Decker can form a device based persona on a cyberdeck and connect it's wire to the universal data connector of a device to ignore master ratings (a datajack must not be used unless the decker want to go cold- or hot-sim VR).
- A decker cannot hack a device with just a datajack. They need their cyberdeck and they need their cyberdeck to be directly connected to the device they are hacking (by attaching a physical cable between their cyberdeck and the device).

A Technomancer can use their living persona and a skinlink echo to forge a direct connection with any device they physically touch to ignore master ratings (a datajack must not be used unless the TM want to use a device based persona and go cold- or hot-sim VR).
- A technomancer have no use at all for a datajack when hacking. They need their living persona and they need their living persona to be directly connected to the device they are hacking (by living persona echo and physically touch the device)

[jack0byte]

Hi hope this doesn't just muddy the waters and is all fluff no crunch but the Otacu  could use living personas though data jacks I know there aren't any rules for Otaku in this editions and I've even heard some people say there aren't any left but I know of at lest one in canon (The Dodger)  who has become a technomancer and the quality Otaku to Technomancer seems to suggest there are others  just seems wired that techno would have lost this ability

that being said every thing I've read suggests that they aren't supposed to be able to

[ScytheKnight]

Ok Xenon I'm busy hoping to start calling BS on all this stuff until you start quoting exactly where it says all this stuff because it's just sounding like your own personal translation of something.

It is clearly stated that you can't use a deck to bridge into a device for direct access. But I see no reason that a technomancer can't use a datajack to gain direct access to a device, and by extension the host it's connected to.

[UnLimiTeD]

Well, there's this bit:

The Subject: Machine Sprites and Diagnostics
...
7. Technically a repeat of 6, but its the one I actually care about so I want to be extra sure. Can a Technomancer use Diagnostics on Trodes or a Satellite Uplink to gain the benefits on their Living Persona while using those Trodes or Satellite Uplink with their Living Persona.

7. No, because you can't use trodes or a satellite uplink on your living persona. You're either using your Resonance abilities or you're not.

So if they have no Living Persona, what persona do they have?
One might argue that a Datajack is different from Trodes, but... is it really?

[Triskavanski]

You know what, I'm going to flip the dynamic here. While there is nothing to prove Xenon right in this reguard, there is nothing to prove him wrong either. Which is pretty much what he's going for. But I'm going to take his arguments, and what Aaron said there one step further.

Technomancers cannot form Pans and use their resonance abilities.

You have to form a device persona to use any device, which means that commlinks cannot be used by technomancers. You might has well have a metalink, because that thing is nothing more than a fancy paper weight in the hands of a technomancer. To form a pan, you have to use the device, and to use the device you have to form a persona on the device. You can only form one persona however.

Its also important to note that its your persona that determines ownership.

As always, you're welcome to change things at your table, but the lack of mentioning ownership in the core discussion of Matrix Perception and the explicit exclusion of it in DT is by design.  Ownership isn't linked to SIN (because in a game about SINless criminals who own lots of toys, that would be a real problem), it's linked to persona.  If I could look at an icon and determine its owner, then all sorts of security SOP for runners goes out the window.  The persona from your burner link will be identifiable as the same as the persona from your Rating 7 link.

 Which means if a technomancer owns something on his device based persona, he will not be considered to be the owner while on his living persona and vice versa. Which of course results in all sorts of different little struggles.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

You know what, I'm going to flip the dynamic here. While there is nothing to prove Xenon right in this reguard, there is nothing to prove him wrong either. Which is pretty much what he's going for. But I'm going to take his arguments, and what Aaron said there one step further.

Technomancers cannot form Pans and use their resonance abilities.

You have to form a device persona to use any device, which means that commlinks cannot be used by technomancers. You might has well have a metalink, because that thing is nothing more than a fancy paper weight in the hands of a technomancer. To form a pan, you have to use the device, and to use the device you have to form a persona on the device. You can only form one persona however.

Its also important to note that its your persona that determines ownership.

As always, you're welcome to change things at your table, but the lack of mentioning ownership in the core discussion of Matrix Perception and the explicit exclusion of it in DT is by design.  Ownership isn't linked to SIN (because in a game about SINless criminals who own lots of toys, that would be a real problem), it's linked to persona.  If I could look at an icon and determine its owner, then all sorts of security SOP for runners goes out the window.  The persona from your burner link will be identifiable as the same as the persona from your Rating 7 link.

 Which means if a technomancer owns something on his device based persona, he will not be considered to be the owner while on his living persona and vice versa. Which of course results in all sorts of different little struggles.

Welcome to the wonderful world of TMs.... they are MAD in Chargen, have to specialize in one of 3 roles to be good at something, inferior to Deckers in raw ability/versatility, with wonky/vague/conflicting Rule Sets!!!!! But hey you get to do "Matrix Magic" with your Resonant Soul as someone described it... I avoid this Character like the hot mess it is and will actively lobby anyone against playing one ever. Unless you're an experienced player who just wants to experience that unique frustration that comes when you character just can't do the shit he's supposed to be a wizard at!!!!! But you get cute Sprites... and if you are happy being a Beastmaster who doesn't like to do his own actions but have your minions perform all your actions for you.... ENJOY!!!!!!

[Critter]

Uh.. Resonant Soul? You're not a magical being like a mage. A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect. Its not like they keep all their mental stats in their stomache or left foot. Its all in the brain.

Fluff aside, the Technomancer rules are basically a cut and paste from the magic rules. Your resonance can't be part of a PAN, even if you have a datajack.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Uh.. Resonant Soul? You're not a magical being like a mage. A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect. Its not like they keep all their mental stats in their stomache or left foot. Its all in the brain.

Fluff aside, the Technomancer rules are basically a cut and paste from the magic rules. Your resonance can't be part of a PAN, even if you have a datajack.

By the Rules TMs don't do anything with the Matrix as it is set up. The simplest solution is to just chuck the whole hot mess & treat it explicitly as Fluff. Treat their Living Persona as their PAN & Matrix Attributes & move on (give them Skinlink as a basic ability as well.) Otherwise if you are going to Rules Lawyer it then just commit to being a Rules Lawyer about so everyone knows not to bother with them. Make them have all kinds of problems with Ownership & Interactions through their wireless Devices who can't technically connect to the Living Persona under the Rules Set. They are supposed to be these Matrix Magicians who feel the code... but have it exist through Devices to function in the world except for these brief moments of freedom where they get to be TMs before going back to existing through a Commlink to order a chessseburger.

[Triskavanski]

Uh.. Resonant Soul? You're not a magical being like a mage. A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect. Its not like they keep all their mental stats in their stomache or left foot. Its all in the brain.

Fluff aside, the Technomancer rules are basically a cut and paste from the magic rules. Your resonance can't be part of a PAN, even if you have a datajack.

The argument was that they could use one to form a direct connection, not form a pan. The only reason why they can't use their living persona to forma  pan isn't because its "magical" but because personas can't form pans. Even a decker couldn't use his persona to forma  pan, but he could use his deck to.

[Critter]

The only reason why they can't use their living persona to forma  pan isn't because its "magical" but because personas can't form pans.

Oooookaaay, sure we'll go with that.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Uh.. Resonant Soul? You're not a magical being like a mage. A datajack would so totally let a Technomancer connect. Its not like they keep all their mental stats in their stomache or left foot. Its all in the brain.

Fluff aside, the Technomancer rules are basically a cut and paste from the magic rules. Your resonance can't be part of a PAN, even if you have a datajack.

The argument was that they could use one to form a direct connection, not form a pan. The only reason why they can't use their living persona to forma  pan isn't because its "magical" but because personas can't form pans. Even a decker couldn't use his persona to forma  pan, but he could use his deck to.

Hence the only way I'd ever play a TM in this cut & paste wonky system that doesn't work with the Matrix is if it was all chucked into the garbage where it belongs!!!!!!! The entire TM class needs to be rebuilt from the ground out to fix it... it already MAD & Skill & Resonance dependent!!!!! They are super extra special cool in the Fluff... then you get to the Crunch and it all falls apart. Half the builds in Character Creation are tecnnos.... cause people really want to play them buy nobody can figure out how.

Make the TMs Mind count as his Deck (that can't run programs or have modifications... sadly I realized I had to write that or the next 3 comments would involve that point) for Rules purposes.... Problem Solved!!! Well they still have a ton of other problems but now they can at least operate the Matrix in a normal manner. If the designers were just lazy... sad, if they actually tried... sad. Leave all the cool fluff to explain what the TM is doing but let the Rules function the same.

[Triskavanski]

The only reason why they can't use their living persona to forma  pan isn't because its "magical" but because personas can't form pans.

Oooookaaay, sure we'll go with that.

There isn't any.. "Ooooookaaaay"

It specifically says it right here on page 233 that only devices can be part of a wan or lan. Not persona.

Only devices can be slaves, masters, or part of a PAN In a WAN, the slaves must be devices, and the master must be a host.

Thus if a Decker forms a persona on his deck, he'll have lower matrix attributes. And while the Deck could be part of a Pan/Wan, the persona is still using the attributes of the deck itself. Preventing you from doing something like having a rating six commlink forming a pan with your persona so you could put the deck's fire wall down low and increase the firewall via the commlink. However to use a commlink you have to form a persona on it, and since you can only use one persona at a time—well, you get the idea.

[Xenon]

1) SR5 PAN is nothing like SR4 PAN.

2) You cannot slave a device directly to your persona. You slave devices to a device (such as a commlink - a decker can not slave devices to his device based persona nor can a Technomancer slave her devices to her living persona).

3) You don't have to base your persona on the master device in your PAN (many do, but a decker would probably slave his devices to his high firewall commlink where he also broadcast his fake SIN but base his persona on his cyberdeck and a TM would probably slave her devices to her high firewall commlink where she also broadcast her fake SIN but use her living persona).

4) You can control any wireless device you are the owner of no matter if they are slaved to your master device or not (you don't need to slave your firearm to your master device if you want to eject the clip as a free mental action - wireless and some way of controlling devices is enough; such as wearing trodes or simply being a TM).

5) TM interact with devices without the use of gizmos. They don't need (and cannot even use) trodes together with their living persona. They don't need (and cannot even use) a sim module on a device to experience AR and VR with their living persona.

[Xenon]

Technomancers cannot form Pans and use their resonance abilities.

TMs cannot slave devices to their living persona.
A decker cannot slave devices to their device based persona, either.

A TM can form a PAN by slaving a device to another device.
A decker can form a PAN by slaving a device to another device.

Please give me a reference that say you must base your persona on the master device in a PAN in order for your devices to stay slaved.

You have to form a device persona to use any device

No you don't. You need a persona and you need to be the legal matrix owner of the device (which is tied to your persona - no matter on which device you currently base your persona on or if you use a living persona - it is still your persona and you are still the legal matrix owner of your devices).

Please give me a reference that say you must use a device based persona to control a device.

Since living persona have a sleaze attribute it can even be used to control someone's else device against the legit owners will (if the TM got enough marks on the device).

To form a pan, you have to use the device, and to use the device you have to form a persona on the device.

Please give me a reference that say you must base your persona on the master device in a PAN in order for your devices to stay slaved.

Its also important to note that its your persona that determines ownership.

It is also important to note that you are still the owner of your devices even if you base your persona on another device or use your living persona. It is still your persona. You only have one persona "fingerprint" (for lack of better word).