[bull30548]

This was just a question I was asked and I answered as honestly as I could at the time it was up to the player.  However, it got me thinking what the more seasoned players and GMs think?  The question is should they make a character as specialized as possible or could they make a character that might not be the best made character but had a great backstory and maybe even a plan on how to develop it into something more, for missions play?  As I said I answered honestly, that imho, it up to the player.  Thoughts?

[Reaver]

From what I have seen and read, most characters used in missions are entirely optimized. (Almost to the point of being cookie cutter characters in some cases - change the name, the fluff and its the same character as Jon's, and Ted's, and frank's!)

That said, its still the players call... he just won't be on the same level as the munchkins. (Which may not be a bad thing)

[SichoPhiend]

I can honestly say that my missions character is far from optimized, approaching 250 karma and there is no way she would do well in a Prime runner mission. 
But seeing how the power level seems to keep going up in the new missions I can certainly see where you might want to optimize if you're bringing a new character to the Cons now.

[Raven2049]

ill be honest, i built my troll phys ad that way, powerful weapon foci, all sorts of fancy additions to my blades skill via adept powers, and augments to my agility and strength to max damage and to hit-dice getting up to the 23 dice range, I got bored with the guy one hitting things about 3 missions in. so bored infact i slung the force 6 weapon focus Combat Axe, and picked up 2 force 5 swords, and the ambidexterity quality, now im hitting with 1/2 the dice but attacking multiple targets in melee, and im having so much more fun doing it. ive even started multiclassing this guy into a face/smuggler. and im having much more fun playing him this way than before.

and it has changed how i build the characters i want to play. i no longer make them have a 12+ die pool at char-gen for their primary shtick. its more in the 8-9 range including the specialization. I found that i enjoy building the character with a backstory better, and fleshing them out as im "living" them and upgrading their skills that way than i do being a one shot wonder and having massive to hit and soak die pools.

my main Rigger i play started out with a jacked in die pool to attack via drone gunnery of 14, he only recently after gaining over 200+ karma upped that to 16 via an attribute increase, and a skill increase.

all that being said, if its up against my runners? pfft one trick pony it is. within reason of course 

[Bull]

Here's the thing about optimization and Missions... 

GMs are encouraged, and almost required, to adjust the adventure to suit the PCs.

That means that, generally speaking if you have a GM who can adjust on the fly, your munchkin-ness or lack thereof won't ultimately have a ton of impact on the adventure.

Missions are designed to be run with any combination of characters...  Which means anything from a table of 6 Twinked-Out Troll Samurai to a group of 5 Pacifist Faces and a Decker.  Lack of variety means fewer options for the story, but ultimately it doesn't really matter what you belly up to the table with.

So have fun.  Bring what you want to play.  Don't bring what you think you have to play.  That's no fun for you or for anyone else, IMO.

[Reaver]

Here's the thing about optimization and Missions... 

GMs are encouraged, and almost required, to adjust the adventure to suit the PCs.

That means that, generally speaking if you have a GM who can adjust on the fly, your munchkin-ness or lack thereof won't ultimately have a ton of impact on the adventure.

Missions are designed to be run with any combination of characters...  Which means anything from a table of 6 Twinked-Out Troll Samurai to a group of 5 Pacifist Faces and a Decker.  Lack of variety means fewer options for the story, but ultimately it doesn't really matter what you belly up to the table with.

So have fun.  Bring what you want to play.  Don't bring what you think you have to play.  That's no fun for you or for anyone else, IMO.

And it is this level of fore-thought and control placed in the Mission GMs is great to see.


But there is still (sometimes) a dynamic fault that can happen     For example, four highly "optimized" characters and one "Real RP" character..... Depending on what that character is, a good GM can help. If the "Real RP" character is the only arch-type there (the only awakened, the only rigger, the only decker) out of the group, a good GM can kind of insulate the weaker "Real RP" character and his much lower dice pools then he can if he is one of several front line combatants, or awakened.... Then you end up in struggle of balancing the player, VS the table Sadly only the really Great GM can pull this one off on a regular basis.



(And no, I am NOT one of them!) 

[biotech66]

As the wielder of Shatie, the world's sexiest troll, I tend to go more story then Optimization.

That said, the game is fun based on what you find fun.  If you NEED to roll 30 d6s to have fun, then a maxxed out combat ax troll is your bag.  If you just want to have a burned out chromed up mage, then my all means go out with a bang.

The problem is when you have those two at the table.  A bad table mix will make that chrome wiz a loser while the troll steals the show.  It's a hard line to walk, and as a GM, you have to be willing to adjust a bit on the fly.

[The Masked Ferret]

Yes, and Hardware, the decker without a deck, is a rather fun character. It all depends on how you play it. At nearly 200 karma, he is approaching survivability.

[SichoPhiend]

If you just want to have a burned out chromed up mage, then my all means go out with a bang.

Have we sat at the same table, because you know me so well...

[Jayde Moon]

Story and optimization are not mutually exclusive.

Hell, it's not even that hard to build a character that has a couple of high dice pools based on a specialty and still have a lot of other things going on to flesh the character out so they aren't merely a walking canon.

[bull30548]

Actually Masked Ferret are you still running over at Galatic Quest in North Georgia or have you found a new place?

[Bull]

And it is this level of fore-thought and control placed in the Mission GMs is great to see.


But there is still (sometimes) a dynamic fault that can happen     For example, four highly "optimized" characters and one "Real RP" character..... Depending on what that character is, a good GM can help. If the "Real RP" character is the only arch-type there (the only awakened, the only rigger, the only decker) out of the group, a good GM can kind of insulate the weaker "Real RP" character and his much lower dice pools then he can if he is one of several front line combatants, or awakened.... Then you end up in struggle of balancing the player, VS the table Sadly only the really Great GM can pull this one off on a regular basis.

(And no, I am NOT one of them!) 

Sadly, you can only do so much with a living campaign.  If this were D&D or Pathfinder, sure, it's easy.  You have some control over how much money and gear characters get every level, and thus have a solid gauge of the power of a group of characters, though an all mage or all cleric or whatever group can still throw things outta whack a little.  But it's not really that bad. 

But with a levelless game like Shadowrun with a LOT of moving parts for characters to play with...  yeah.  you just kinda gotta throw your hands in the air and hope the GM can roll with it.  Sadly, not all handle it as well as others, but that's ok.

hopefully most players participating in Missions understand the limitations, and can just roll with the sitch as it comes up.  At the end of the day, you'll have one of a couple outcomes:

1)  You get the drek kicked out of you and spend/burn some Edge.  Edge is a lovely failsafe to keep your character alive. And you should have some fun stories to tell.  I know most of my best "Bull the Ork Decker" stories usually involve Bull getting tormented by the GM and usually losing body parts and/or expensive pieces of gear. (This was mostly 2nd and 3rd ed, so before Edge.  And the Hand of God rule was kinda brutal, so fortunately we almost never used it.

2)  The GM can handle things, and you have a great time as a well-integrated member of the team.  And even a starting, out of the book sample character can usually hold his own with a group of Prime Runners.  Those characters mostly don't suck.

3)  And lastly, worst case scenario, the GM isn't able to tailor the game well to the power differential, and you coast on the tails of your more powerful teammates.  unless they're a bunch of jackholes who dominate the game though, you should still be able to Roleplay and have a good time (And if they are dominating, talk to the GM and/or the event coordinator, because that's violating Wheaton's Law).  And hey, you got an easy bunch of cash and karma out of it as well.

[Marcus]

Both.
There is no need to sacrifice one for the other, you can have a great story and a great build.

Tell your players to stop whining start designing.

[Kincaid]

My Missions character is decidedly sub-optimal by design.  He has a fairly complex backstory, but, due to the nature of Missions, it's rarely spotlighted.  That's okay since it still informs the decisions he makes and it makes my own play experience that much more enjoyable.  Any sort of open play lends itself to optimization, but I've found as long as your competent, SRM is pretty forgiving.

[Hibiki54]

Instead of give you my thoughts, I will give you my first hand experience in making a story related character.

I started off with the theme of being an expert martial artist (before Run & Gun) that can take on Trolls in hand to hand. The key part being that he had zero chrome and was mundane. He was basically a weapons specialist focused on Assault Rifles, Shotguns and Unarmed Combat. He was also human and had 8 Edge, so his weaker skills were brought up through sheer luck. In terms of keeping with the theme and playing the role, he was more than adequate when taking the roll as a mid-ranged combatant and a better melee combatant when Run & Gun became official thanks to Martial Arts techniques. Combat Stims also helped when the drek hit the fan (and Edge was needed more for re-rolls over initiative)He earned 177 Career (not including Working for the People) karma as a pure mundane, non-chromed Runner.

As I breached the 250 karma (gross total) mark and the 500k nuyen, I decided that my character would have an accident between missions during down time. Essentially, he was involved in a plane crash from London to Chicago resulting most of his supportive bone structure being broken, severe nerve damage and being placed into a coma. His family, without his knowledge or consent, paid to have his body repaired with Betaware grade medical replacements such as Titanium Bone Lacings to repair his broken bones and strengthen them along with having cultured bioware to stimulate the Synaptic responses in his spine. So, now I have a character who has no visible chrome and has no knowledge of having augmentations installed. And while his combat abilities have not changed, his durability has increased significantly to the point that he can take on 3-4 Trolls(rating 3-4) in hand-to-hand combat.

And to answer you question, yes you can do Missions with a completely unoptimized character. Optimization in Shadowrun Missions means that your character is 100% into their arch-type, typically throwing 16+ dice in their selected professional field. If you stick to the general rule of thumb of dice pools for primary, secondary and general skills (12-16, 8-12, 6-8), you can actually get really far over time.