[The_Gun_Nut]

Was treachery used?  I doubt anyone was kicked out of the game for randomly crippling another player.  And his dog.

[FastJack]

Was treachery used?  I doubt anyone was kicked out of the game for randomly crippling another player.  And his dog.

I saw no treachery on part of the Vikings or Saints.

The Saints fans, however, probably all went to work with laryngitis this morning from keeping it so loud when Favre was on the field, he had to rely on stomping his foot as a visual cue to the Center to hike the ball.

[Kot]

So, basically, saying that this game should be burned is an insult to fire.

That one made me laugh hysterically, and it was pretty much all i needed from that review.

[Mystic]

I watched the Vikings/Saints game last night. Myth busted. 

What did Jamie and Adam have to do with it?? However, Kari in a cheerleader outfit. I'm hip.

However, sense we diverged a bit into football...After this last sunday, I get to say something I never thought I would ever get to say again: Ahem...

LIONS WIN, BABY! BOO-YA!!!!!!!

Now, back to our regularly scheduled insanaity, already in progress....

[Wolfboy]

hey uh, maybe trying to get back on the orriginal subject, any word JM on when it might be ready?

[voydangel]

Yes quite. I can't hold my breath much longer - I'm turning blue! WTB Runners Toolkit!

[Head Hunter]

Sounds like an interesting product.

[Semerkhet]

I really didn't grok how 'noob-unfriendly' the SR4 character creation system was until I had to guide my wife through it.  She's a fairly casual gamer but has played games like Ars Magica and GURPS in the past.  She was new not only to the 4th edition chargen system but to the Shadowrun setting as a whole.  She was having a very difficult time wrestling the chargen system to fulfill her character concept, a Face/Infiltration expert, and needed a great deal of my help to build an effective character.  I've heard this problem referred to as "system mastery", i.e. that it takes experience and skill with a system to make an effective character in that system.  I feel like SR4 suffers from a fairly serious case of system mastery.  Anything that will help players unfamiliar with SR rules and setting make an effective character that fulfills their concept will be a boon.

Also, I'm sick of using my substantially annotated GM screen.

[wraith]

I'll admit, even coming from a long 1-3e background the 4e chargen took a couple readthroughs to really grok.

[ssjevot]

I really want this product, the new GM screen alone could make it worth the purchase.  I hope it turns out great.

[imperialus]

I really didn't grok how 'noob-unfriendly' the SR4 character creation system was until I had to guide my wife through it.  She's a fairly casual gamer but has played games like Ars Magica and GURPS in the past.  She was new not only to the 4th edition chargen system but to the Shadowrun setting as a whole.  She was having a very difficult time wrestling the chargen system to fulfill her character concept, a Face/Infiltration expert, and needed a great deal of my help to build an effective character.  I've heard this problem referred to as "system mastery", i.e. that it takes experience and skill with a system to make an effective character in that system.  I feel like SR4 suffers from a fairly serious case of system mastery.  Anything that will help players unfamiliar with SR rules and setting make an effective character that fulfills their concept will be a boon.

Also, I'm sick of using my substantially annotated GM screen.

SR4 chargen is a pain.  I use an excel sheet just to keep my numbers in order.  I tried doing a fairly bog standard street sam longhand a few months ago and it almost killed me.

[wraith]

Yeah, part of what threw me so badly was the number of times that rules mechanics are in-line in the description of things, meaning a ton of referencing back until I got what was where in my memory.  It was annoying enough doing up the build with Excel, I'll have to try one on paper and see if my patience holds.   

[Prime Mover]

Driving this off topic here.  But for first time players I find it best for them try out a pre-gen to help get them some of that "system mastery".  I understand some say pre-gens aren't the best builds but in my personal experience it doesn't take long for a player to start grasping the concepts and have a build in mind fairly quickly.

[Semerkhet]

Driving this off topic here.  But for first time players I find it best for them try out a pre-gen to help get them some of that "system mastery".  I understand some say pre-gens aren't the best builds but in my personal experience it doesn't take long for a player to start grasping the concepts and have a build in mind fairly quickly.

That can certainly work at home but please don't try that at a convention in a Missions game.  I made the mistake of doing that at the most recent GenCon and I ended up being...well, let's just say I was underperforming compared to the rest of the group.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Did you use one out of the book or one that the organizer provided?  If the former, there are a few archetypes that work well, even though they are not completely optimized (street sam, face).  If the latter, then the organizer should have done a better job at providing what the players needed.