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What the hell?

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Bull

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« Reply #15 on: (17:44:55/12-27-10) »
My apologies then, Bobby.  I assumed that the scribd account was yours.  

*sigh*  I know better than to get involved with this stuff, and I'm letting my irritation with this situation (And a pile of real life stress) cloud my judgement.  I should have stayed out of it and stayed silent, I suppose.

I just find it incredibly irritating to find things I (and others) say or post in private (And despite claims to the contrary, places like the freelancer forums/mailing list and the Champaign Room are supposed to be private) getting scrutinized and commented on publicly, especially when at least half the time it's taken out of context.

Like I said, I was under the belief that the Scrib account was yours, so if it's not, you have my apologies for mispeaking there.

Bull


Semerkhet

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« Reply #16 on: (18:18:10/12-27-10) »
Ah, I miss the days when people expressed dislike of a product by simply not buying it, and letting the market take it's course instead of spending time personally attacking those who make the product and spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone else why the product, and those who make it, "suck" by airing all the supposed "dirty laundry" and little secrets.

I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent.  I absolutely guarantee you that if there had been an internet in the late '70s and early '80s that there would have been epic flame wars attacking Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax over the direction they were taking D&D.  Chainmail loyalists would have cursed Gygax for taking the focus off of the miniatures, and on and on. 

My point is there were no good old days and human nature hasn't changed a bit.

Chaemera

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« Reply #17 on: (18:32:45/12-27-10) »
Ah, I miss the days when people expressed dislike of a product by simply not buying it, and letting the market take it's course instead of spending time personally attacking those who make the product and spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone else why the product, and those who make it, "suck" by airing all the supposed "dirty laundry" and little secrets.

I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent.  I absolutely guarantee you that if there had been an internet in the late '70s and early '80s that there would have been epic flame wars attacking Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax over the direction they were taking D&D.  Chainmail loyalists would have cursed Gygax for taking the focus off of the miniatures, and on and on. 

My point is there were no good old days and human nature hasn't changed a bit.

Isn't that what local hobby / comic shops used to be for? While complaining has always been part of the give and take of business, as Semerkhet says, the volume has gone up, and the quality down. It used to be that to get an audience of hundreds or thousands, you had to make your point persuasively enough to convince others to spread your message. Now, just hop on DS or this forum and rant. You don't need substance (as noted by the OP, no offense to his fans, but that rant was lacking, sorely), or even persuasion.
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wraith

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« Reply #18 on: (19:54:51/12-27-10) »
Ah, I miss the days when people expressed dislike of a product by simply not buying it, and letting the market take it's course instead of spending time personally attacking those who make the product and spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone else why the product, and those who make it, "suck" by airing all the supposed "dirty laundry" and little secrets.

Seriously, does anyone think that this will do any good in the long run? Are the developres at CGL suddenly going to go "you know, you're right...we suck, we're ruining Shadowrun/Battletech and as of now, we're going to quit." All the personal attacks are doing is making the attackers look immature at best and unprofessional at worse. All it will accomplish is to create an schism between the fandom and developers, one of "us versus them" rather than one of cooperation with little chance of improvement. Not to mention how it is damaging the Shadowrun reputation with Topps and the gaming comunity in general.  

Ultimately, it is the job of the developers to determine how a product will go, for better or worse. If they screw it up, eventually they will replaced; that's the nature of business. And this IS a business, period. Ultimately, all we can do is support the product if we believe in it, good AND bad. Because if we don't, someone higher up may ultimately decide that our product is not worth the effort to produce.

But then what do I know. Just my .00568 cents (after taxes).

I can't speak for the hardcore anti-Catalyst folks, because frankly I'm not up on their issues.  But what I'm reading here seems like the reason for so much backchatter where War! is concerned is because a lot of the early-adopter folks who picked up the .pdf at release see problems they'd really like to see corrected before the hardcopy print.  I don't think there's anyone bothering to post about SR on the forums here that doesn't like the game and want more good stuff for it, after all!   ;D

FastJack

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« Reply #19 on: (20:17:32/12-27-10) »
Too true, wraith. Fanbases are notorious for love/hate relationships.

Mystic

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« Reply #20 on: (00:07:30/12-28-10) »
Too true, wraith. Fanbases are notorious for love/hate relationships.

I know it comes with the territory, but every now and again it gets a bit..irritating. I am also a Star Wars and Star Trek fan. Yeah, no fanbase issues THERE.

And I know it is wishful thinking, but it would be nice to get away from that here. And for the most part this and the BT forums are relatively "fanboyism free" and for that I am grateful. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I see people, who in my not so humble opinion are going out of their way to trash something because they "dont like the direction" things are going and or out of sour grapes.

Constructive critisism is one thing, and should always be welcome, especially when there is a need. The internet has been a blessing and a curse for just about anything. A great way for supporters to well...support, and vice versa...ohhh how vice versa.
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ssjevot

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« Reply #21 on: (00:52:19/12-28-10) »
I think the problem is a lot of people just have axes to grind, and honestly don't care if Shadowrun improves so much as wanting CGL to suffer and possibly go out of business.  I personally want more Shadowrun products and just want to see a return to the quality we're used to in regard to the proofreading issue specifically.  I'd be more forgiving if errata were released at a more regular interval, but I'm wondering if I'll ever see errata for Sixth World Almanac, let alone War!.  I actually think the content of these books are good though, and I've read this review by Frank Trollman and honestly he goes through with such a fine toothed comb that almost any Shadowrun location sourcebook of comparable style (e.g. Corporate Enclaves, Runner's Havens) could be made to sound horrible.  They're not horrible, and neither is War!, the only real problem is the lack of proofreading, and I feel that might be falling on deaf ears due to all the people who just want to burn CGL to the ground.

I want to continue buying CGL Shadowrun products, but I also want proofreading and errata to get some attention.  Sixth World Almanac was a good product that could have been great without errors, and War! is an okay product that could have been decent without errors.  I legitimately think CGL can improve their books, and by making it sound like they're destroying Shadowrun you're not exactly encouraging them to improve the quality of their products.
« Last Edit: (01:44:05/12-28-10) by ssjevot »

Mystic

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« Reply #22 on: (01:41:40/12-28-10) »
Very true, not to mention it can make it more difficult to attract new talent. If I knew I was going to constantly get blasted and my work nitpicked above and beyond, why should I bother when I could go somewhere else?
Bringing chaos, mayhem, and occasionally cookies to the Sixth World since 2052!

"Just because it's easy for you doesn't mean it can't be hard on your clients"-Rule 38, The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries, Schlock Mercenary.

Semerkhet

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« Reply #23 on: (09:38:11/12-28-10) »
Very true, not to mention it can make it more difficult to attract new talent. If I knew I was going to constantly get blasted and my work nitpicked above and beyond, why should I bother when I could go somewhere else?
I wouldn't let the rantings of a few people who very openly wish for the demise of the company stop me from writing for the benefit of the thousands of fans that just want to see good Shadowrun products.  I don't understand this exaggerated empowerment of Frank Trollman, et al, by ascribing him outsized influence over the fan base.  I agree with some of Frank's analysis and he wears his bias on his sleeve but he is one voice.  The authors of War! could have looked at the first few reviews or the first couple pages of the War! topic at DS and gotten a good idea of what needed to be fixed.  There is no need for them to wade through the subsequent sixteen pages of ranting.  Let it run its course; its cathartic.  In fact, I think that is what most of the authors are doing.

I guess I'm saying that everyone needs a thicker skin for their internet interactions.  I will not claim immunity from taking offense sometimes but I try hard to delay in replying to a post that annoys me until the initial wave of indignation can pass.

Kot

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« Reply #24 on: (11:05:49/12-28-10) »
I think the problem is a lot of people just have axes to grind, and honestly don't care if Shadowrun improves so much as wanting CGL to suffer and possibly go out of business. 
And that would be the end of SR. No company would pick up a game with that kin of problems, fearing both reception, and sales.
As for me, i can't decide. I have Vice and 6th World Almanac, but they're on reading queue for the moment, so i can't say i like/hate it. Maybe when i read them, i'll have an opinion on the directions SR4 has taken.
I've been a huge Earthdawn fan, but what RedBrick is doing is basically pumping the fanbase of ED for money with minimal effort, by releasing old content with not enough changes in both rules and storyline/setting. I hope that will change, when they start to release books like Kratas, or maybe with Cathay. But for me, there's nothing in those re-done books - I've already seen them all. With Shadowrun, that's not the case. Everything i read is new...
But i still see Shadowrun was crippled. All those great freelancers who were creating something new are gone, and some of them even oppose everything CGL does on principle. This is wrong. I don't really care who 'did it'. Because that won't help - they won't call a truce, nor go back to the way it was.
Again - i don't have any opinion on the 'current SR', but i deeply regret it's not the same Shadowrun I saw in the 20th Anniversary rulebook, or Street Magic/Arsenal/Unwired/Runner's Companion.
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Crimsondude

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« Reply #25 on: (11:06:00/12-29-10) »
I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent.
Except when FASA had an official presence on GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and a semi-official presence on the ShadowRN mailing list. AFAIK, FASA's Internet presence preceded Shadowrun.
You know, when they had the Star Trek license and all.

I don't appreciate things like having a private post be slapped online and commented upon, but I am only concerned about my initial reaction than any actual commentary on it. That's the beauty of being a current writer is that I really an audience of one to please. Not that I don't care about the customers; my writing philosophy (as I have mentioned on this forum) is solely concerned with how it helps them play their games.

Besides that, I find self-righteous anger at material to be rather counterproductive. As much as I bitched and moaned and wasted hours pontificating on why I wished I could dispublish a subchapter in System Failure, when I took my head out of my ass and actually worked it into a campaign, it was glorious. It was my magnum opus as a GM. I just want people to use what I write. I don't care if they subvert the entire intent of what I was writing. I guess it comes with my writing background that I expect and know that people will take what they want from the written word and bend and twist it to their liking, so I just want to make it worth incorporating into their games at all.

The entire playtest manuscript of Awakenings (then called the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic) was released on the AOL RPG area's filehost months if not a year-plus before that book was released. So until that happens, I don't give a fuck about leaks. I did what Critias did (on his advice, actually).

Now I am a Shadowrun freelancer.

Ho Ho Ho

Semerkhet

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« Reply #26 on: (11:20:51/12-29-10) »
Except when FASA had an official presence on GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and a semi-official presence on the ShadowRN mailing list. AFAIK, FASA's Internet presence preceded Shadowrun.
You know, when they had the Star Trek license and all.

I don't appreciate things like having a private post be slapped online and commented upon, but I am only concerned about my initial reaction than any actual commentary on it. That's the beauty of being a current writer is that I really an audience of one to please. Not that I don't care about the customers; my writing philosophy (as I have mentioned on this forum) is solely concerned with how it helps them play their games.

Besides that, I find self-righteous anger at material to be rather counterproductive. As much as I bitched and moaned and wasted hours pontificating on why I wished I could dispublish a subchapter in System Failure, when I took my head out of my ass and actually worked it into a campaign, it was glorious. It was my magnum opus as a GM. I just want people to use what I write. I don't care if they subvert the entire intent of what I was writing. I guess it comes with my writing background that I expect and know that people will take what they want from the written word and bend and twist it to their liking, so I just want to make it worth incorporating into their games at all.

The entire playtest manuscript of Awakenings (then called the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic) was released on the AOL RPG area's filehost months if not a year-plus before that book was released. So until that happens, I don't give a fuck about leaks. I did what Critias did (on his advice, actually).

I was more referring to even earlier than AOL and GEnie but I take your point.  However, you remind me that I did, in fact, receive a draft manuscript of "Shadowbeat" from Paul Hume via GEnie.  We printed it out and read it and used it in our games.  Never occurred to us to go back on-line and nit-pick the bits we didn't like.  Of course, I was an enthusiastic 18-year-old fan-boy at that point whose only sin was being a bit of a munchkin.  Not the cynical 39-year-old sitting at work between Xmas and NYE pretending to be busy.

wraith

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« Reply #27 on: (13:04:39/12-29-10) »
I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent.
Except when FASA had an official presence on GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and a semi-official presence on the ShadowRN mailing list. AFAIK, FASA's Internet presence preceded Shadowrun.
You know, when they had the Star Trek license and all.

I don't appreciate things like having a private post be slapped online and commented upon, but I am only concerned about my initial reaction than any actual commentary on it. That's the beauty of being a current writer is that I really an audience of one to please. Not that I don't care about the customers; my writing philosophy (as I have mentioned on this forum) is solely concerned with how it helps them play their games.

Besides that, I find self-righteous anger at material to be rather counterproductive. As much as I bitched and moaned and wasted hours pontificating on why I wished I could dispublish a subchapter in System Failure, when I took my head out of my ass and actually worked it into a campaign, it was glorious. It was my magnum opus as a GM. I just want people to use what I write. I don't care if they subvert the entire intent of what I was writing. I guess it comes with my writing background that I expect and know that people will take what they want from the written word and bend and twist it to their liking, so I just want to make it worth incorporating into their games at all.

The entire playtest manuscript of Awakenings (then called the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic) was released on the AOL RPG area's filehost months if not a year-plus before that book was released. So until that happens, I don't give a fuck about leaks. I did what Critias did (on his advice, actually).

Now I am a Shadowrun freelancer.

Ho Ho Ho


It makes an interesting comparison to the folks over at Paizo, and their recently released Advanced Player's Guide.  The book adds a lot of additional rules, including four more base classes, to the game... classes which were released six months earlier in late Beta form for public playtest, then revised before publication based on player commentary.

Their whole philosophy is centered around getting people to play and think about the game first and foremost.  I'm not saying that Catalyst would benefit by being as open with their game development, but given the number of things that just the vocal folks here on the board can turn up within a few days of release, a bit of beta testing might be called for.  Heck, get Bull to put it in Missions.   ;D

Crossbow

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« Reply #28 on: (21:23:40/12-29-10) »
Maybe the subject here should be Why the hell?

As in why the hell it matters so much?

I am obviously coming in at the middle of this story, I know nothing about any bad blood between creators and I am not about to try and wade into the Dumpshock pool to find out.

There is a reason WOTC never acknowledges the existence of leaks outside of legal action.  The leak is a violation of law, either privacy or NDA or copyright, they shouldn't have to.  We can debate it all we want to in private, but there is no reason to acknowledge criminal behavior.  I can appriciate the access to the creators that I can enjoy with Catalyst, but there is a limit and that has to be respected.

Otakusensei

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« Reply #29 on: (14:05:15/12-30-10) »
Maybe the subject here should be Why the hell?

As in why the hell it matters so much?

I am obviously coming in at the middle of this story, I know nothing about any bad blood between creators and I am not about to try and wade into the Dumpshock pool to find out.

There is a reason WOTC never acknowledges the existence of leaks outside of legal action.  The leak is a violation of law, either privacy or NDA or copyright, they shouldn't have to.  We can debate it all we want to in private, but there is no reason to acknowledge criminal behavior.  I can appriciate the access to the creators that I can enjoy with Catalyst, but there is a limit and that has to be respected.


All you really need to know from the DS threads is that CGL got into a lot of trouble because they were taking too long to pay some of their freelancers and artists; in some cases years.  While at the same time they were pumping out books at a really slow pace.  That prompted someone to leak documents which lead to some accusations that the owner of the company had embezzled a ton of money from the company over a number of years.  Management acknowledged a problem, refrained from publishing specifics and circled the wagons to start a process of totally revamping the business infrastructure; document retention, financial management, communication, the works.  During that time a number of employees and freelancers who did a huge amount of really stellar work on Shadowrun left, mostly stating personal reasons, or were asked by the current development staff not to come back.  There is still a lot of bad blood on that subject, so you'll have to check the threads if you want details of that.  The current team had some books still in development and work coming down the pipeline, some of which they had the change because of lost freelancers taking their work with them.

That was mostly last year.  In the intervening time CGL has worked through the better part of the back log with books like Corp Guide and Sixth World Almanac.  War! really represents the first book that the current CGL has taken from an idea to an executed product.