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[SR5] Fake SINs and Forgery skill

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NovaHot1

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« on: (16:19:16/03-18-15) »
Page 146 Shadowrun 5e says:
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Data-based forgeries, like credsticks, documents, and SINs, don't really hold up well to scrutiny, what with information being so readily available. They can appear almost identical to the original, but any attempt to get it to act like the original (transfer nuyen, pass a SIN check, etc.) reveals the forgery.

So if I have a player who wants to have forgery as a skill and a possible source of downtime income and he wants to make fake SINs, what would I have him roll since data based forgery is flimsy?
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psycho835

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« Reply #1 on: (16:27:12/03-18-15) »
Forgery with appropriate penalty?

Kincaid

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« Reply #2 on: (16:30:14/03-18-15) »
He'd be selling the cheapest of cheap knock-offs.  They aren't hard to make, per se, they just don't serve much of a purpose in any environment in which you expect someone to run a SIN check.  They could still have their uses for creative players, but it's a niche market.
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NovaHot1

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« Reply #3 on: (16:55:06/03-18-15) »
They can obviously be made as they are for sale from black market sources. It's not at all fair to limit him to selling cheap knock offs. Maybe with an accompanied logic+software test for passing the SIN scanner with a threshold of something like rating x 4 [30 minutes]
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Xenon

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« Reply #4 on: (17:11:55/03-18-15) »
You can forge a SIN that make it look like you are broadcasting a SIN that belong to an employed guard at the corporation.
It just don't let you pass a regular SIN check.......

Fake SINs that actually have a valid link into the GSINR are beyond what you can create with a simply data-forgery test....

psycho835

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« Reply #5 on: (19:12:36/03-18-15) »
How about using forgery to modify a legit SIN that you have... ummm... "aquired"?

NovaHot1

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« Reply #6 on: (19:14:39/03-18-15) »
You can forge a SIN that make it look like you are broadcasting a SIN that belong to an employed guard at the corporation.
It just don't let you pass a regular SIN check.......

Fake SINs that actually have a valid link into the GSINR are beyond what you can create with a simply data-forgery test....

Right! So basically what I'm trying to figure out is what the process would have to be to create fake SINs that would be of the same type you can buy on the block market. If he has to team up with the decker...it would foster teamwork.
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8-bit

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« Reply #7 on: (19:35:47/03-18-15) »
It definitely involves going into the Global SIN Registry, so yes, hacking is involved. Most ID Manufacturers have a team they work with (if they aren't a syndicate or other organization already). We'll probably get rules to do this in Data Trails.
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Kincaid

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« Reply #8 on: (19:36:53/03-18-15) »
Previous editions had rules for this and, even then, it was a laborious, months-long process.  It's treated as a full-time profession in most of the fluff, not something you casually do on the side.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #9 on: (22:33:36/03-18-15) »
Previous editions had rules for this and, even then, it was a laborious, months-long process.  It's treated as a full-time profession in most of the fluff, not something you casually do on the side.
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From the 4th Edition book Unwired, page 95:
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Creating a fake system identifiation number (SIN) requires extensive resources that most shadowrunners just donít have; the forger must generate and insert corroborating data into a number of government and corporate databases, the names and addresses of which are not available to the general public. The fixers and syndicates who deal in false SINs and IDs have established channels and contacts that work in the issuing institutions and have multiple backdoors into the necessary databanks. Even then it can be a tedious, expensive process to produce a high-rating false SIN, and also a very personal one involving increasing degrees of personal information and biometric data depending on the rating of the fake SIN. Solo hackers and technomancers can forge their own SINs, but without the apparatus of contacts and backdoors in place the process is much longer and more diffilt than buying a fake SIN. Gamemasters should think very carefully before allowing their player character hackers to dabble in forging SINs, as it can prove unbalancing. The following rules are for use at the gamemasterís discretion.

To forge a fake SIN required two steps. First, the SIN itself, which was a Forgery + Edit extended test with a threshold of (Rating * 32) and an interval of 1 week. Then, in order to insert the appropriate corroborating data, a series of Hacking + System tests with a threshold of the target System and an interval of 1 hour was required at the discretion of the GM, or he could choose to summarize the hacking part by allowing an extended Hacking + Edit test with a threshold of (rating of fake SIN * System) with an interval of 1 hour.

Lucean

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« Reply #10 on: (02:33:55/03-19-15) »
Since buying a SIN via negotiation or through a connection would only require 4 days to 2 weeks (when having equal hits on the opposed roll) but could be much less depending on the roll, there is a serious disconnect.
So either the rules should spell the exception for purchasing SINs out or the process of creation should be able to be refined.

Senko

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« Reply #11 on: (04:43:13/03-19-15) »
The difference is resources.

You want a fake sin lets say rating 4 nice solid one.

Doing it yourself
You have to spend time forging the SIN
You have to hack into numerous databases and insert the backstory (education, dna, biometrics, family history, medical history etc etc)
You have to link all these together in the central database without tripping any alarms.
You have to link them to your forged Sin.

Getting it through a contact
They probably have dozens of "unused" sins sitting around for people not interested in a solid match and just need to insert a few little details here and there based on your info.
They can have dozens of contacts putting in data and linking them.
They probably have backdoors into the more commonly used systems so rather than hacking in they just log in as Edwauardo J Fakenameyname and put in a record of Tom Lisa Hayes and his C average in school.

All in all its a lot quicker and easier because of those differences.

Have other people to do things rather than havnig to do it themself
Have legitimate or at least established ways into systems where you have to break in
Have a base matrix that they can probably call upon in order to supply rating 1 or 2 sins where the details don't really matter.

Now yes technically any character could do the same but its not something you can do on the side while running you'd need to make contact with people in those fields, get access to databases, get the tools and techniques to prepare it. There's a reason fixers by and large have retired and are just acting as middle men rather than running themselves.

Lucean

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« Reply #12 on: (06:42:00/03-19-15) »
It shouldn't matter who does the forging for the world to make sense. Starting at Rating 4 it should be hard to find a good match catching dust on a shelf, especially when you're more exotic or have distinctive features.

Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #13 on: (07:32:29/03-19-15) »
Lucean
You might want to read the text I quoted again, paying particular attention to the following two lines:
"The fixers and syndicates who deal in false SINs and IDs have established channels and contacts that work in the issuing institutions and have multiple backdoors into the necessary databanks."

"Solo hackers and technomancers can forge their own SINs, but without the apparatus of contacts and backdoors in place the process is much longer and more diffilt than buying a fake SIN."

Individuals are not going to be able to get this done as quickly as a team. It's like the difference between buying a stolen car, and building the car from scratch. Possible, but ultimately much more time consuming.

Lucean

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« Reply #14 on: (07:46:52/03-19-15) »
Well, my mistake, yes. I concentrated only on the bolded part and you text with the needed time. Thanks for pointing it out.