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Petnomancers A guide for 5th Edition Technomancers as a pet class

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Triskavanski

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« Reply #30 on: (07:59:58/03-11-15) »
Lately I've been thinking that possibly, Res A is a trap for technomancers. I mean, it sounds like what you should totally do right?

But lets say you went Skills A, Attributes B, Resonance C, human D, Resourece E

Res A Karma worth is: Special Attribute (from 3 to 6) 75 Karma, Skills 60 Karma, and 16 karma for complex forms, Giving you 155 karma over Res C. Sounds impressive, until you factor in that the human D could knock out the 75 karma cost, And your skills could easily cover the skill point loss (And add specilizations) leaving you with 16 karma for complex forms. But honestly, those kinda don't do a whole lot, are rather hard to use, or have high fade attributes.

Now learning a new complex form only costs 4 karma, and takes 12 days to learn. Those 12 days however can be rather quickly reduced by getting a rather large number of hits on a software + Intuition test. With 2 hits, you learn learn it in six days, four days for three, three days for 4. So yeah, its easier to learn the CFs while in play than it is to spend 4-5 weeks to increase an attribute.


Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Hobbes

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« Reply #31 on: (09:00:36/03-11-15) »
For anyone that can get to Resonance 6 and doesn't care about Edge, yes, Resonance A isn't worth it.  For Metatypes that can't raise Resonance to 6 any other way, you're kinda stuck with Resonance A.  You need the dice for compiling and registering Sprites, you've gotta get to around 14 dice for re-registering a Level 4 Sprite to start coming out ahead.

With less dice on Re-registering you can compensate with lower level sprites until you get your dice pool up, but that's impacting every Matrix test and anything your Machine sprites would be assisting you with.  May or may not be worth the trade off, would depend on the build specifics. 

But yes, generally if you can get Resonance to 6 without an A, you're better off because Complex Forums are cheap and a higher skill priority gets you far more skill points.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #32 on: (12:42:19/03-11-15) »
Even then, its pretty much trappy. You can boost your edge up faster than any other stat.(takes no time to train)

Id go with b or c, then build up edge after that. If you pick up nothing else beyond the 25 quality points, you can start with 3 edge easily.
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Hobbes

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« Reply #33 on: (20:51:02/03-11-15) »
If you're willing to settle for Resonance 5 Elf builds can go
E Resources; D Resonance, C Elf, B Skills, A Attributes.   5 res; 1 Edge and fix special stats with Karma?  Maybe.  Losing that Resonance dice hurts though I don't feel that its strictly "better", but I'll list it as an option. 

I think a Dwarf build comes out better,
E Resources; D Resonance, C Skills, B Dwarf, A Attributes.  6 Res; 1 Edge is easier to correct with Karma and potentially a starting willpower of 8?  I'll update the OP for Dwarf Meta, that looks better.




8-bit

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« Reply #34 on: (20:52:45/03-11-15) »
You realize that Resonance is only available in Priority C or higher, right?
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Hobbes

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« Reply #35 on: (21:31:07/03-11-15) »
Back in 4th when my group did the math on Techno vs Deckers, we had determined that the best thing to do as a Techno right out of the box was to sprite up and let them do the work (though not in the same way this build does it), but back then we had some options that helped techno considerably more, see the smartlink form etc. But in the current state of hacking those options don't exist outside house rules. I'm hoping this will be fixed with the release of the 5th Hacking book but I have no idea when that will happen, and if its anything like SG it ma

So the question for me remains is this truly viable?
The aid action stuff is cute, and it does give a decent die and even non-standard limit bonus, but honestly the limit bonus is fairly meaningless, as technos are super Multi-Attribute Dependent, and can't really afford to take cyberware. Threading + super skill wires was the broken answer back in 4th. But the power that made that work in the meat world doesn't exist in 5th.

Its viable if the GM is willing to let you use Sprites in this way, and will tolerate your constant need to register and re-register during your down time.  A lot of this build is dependent on how your table works.  Not so much if your GM requires a lot of virtual foreplay for Matrix actions, like multiple Matrix perception checks, lots of dead ends and things like that.  You'll lose a ton of action efficiency because you'll want to limit your Sprite use to important rolls only.  If your GM is more of the "Here is the thing"  "okay I hack the thing"  then you'll be fine.  First run will likely be tight no matter what you do.

As far as meat space goes you're not a primary combatant, but you're not a liability.  You should be able to match up with what a Decker or Face can do in meat space.  Should have two actions, you'll be a touch later in the pass usually.  I think you wind up slightly squishier, but with more firepower (typically).  Figure a Decker or Face would have a Smartlink and Wired 1 and around 11 Dice with a Gun.  Maybe 18 Soak, 10ish dice for Defense?  Technomancer likely has less Soak, but more dice with the gun.  You should be able to hit a 10+1d6 for initiative with a technomancer.  Good 'nuff for two actions, but later in the pass.

And seriously, Machine Sprites running Diagnostics on other character's equipment is a huge boost to the team.  Nobody at the table is going to think giving more shooting dice to the guy with 3 actions and a big ass gun is a bad idea.  And if your GM is a tolerant sort he'll let you park the Machine Sprite in a gun indefinitely since RAW the Diagnostics action doesn't end until you say so.  So with some GMs you'll be able to focus entirely on re-registering Crack Sprites.

*shrug* or your GM will gimp you for no reason.  In that case, either deal with it, or play something else. 

Hobbes

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« Reply #36 on: (21:33:21/03-11-15) »
You realize that Resonance is only available in Priority C or higher, right?

What the ef?  Seriously?  Seriously.  *sigh*  Every other magic option is Magic 2 for Priority D  *sigh*

'kay, thanks!

OP Updated for the second time tonight.  I'm going to stop checking this thread for things I got wrong.  ;D

« Last Edit: (21:37:43/03-11-15) by Hobbes »

Triskavanski

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« Reply #37 on: (21:49:19/03-11-15) »
Aye, I'd rate Humans and dwarfs as the top two core book races.

Most of the Run faster races come up short With possible exception of Gnome.
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8-bit

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« Reply #38 on: (00:33:59/03-12-15) »
What the ef?  Seriously?  Seriously.  *sigh*  Every other magic option is Magic 2 for Priority D  *sigh*

Well, kind of. Only Adept and Aspected Magician at D. Magician and Mystic Adept, as well as Technomancer, require C or above.

It is annoying though, I agree. I've always setup houserules to allow purchase (albeit at much lower values) at D.
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Danny Montanny

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« Reply #39 on: (08:13:39/03-12-15) »
The new Dwarf build on the OP won't work, I don't think. For starters, you have both REA and WIL hard capped. You could always just move the point over to CHA and be in line, but it's the skills that are killing me. You could sort of get away with 22 when you had the extra 10 from Resonance A, but now... No way you're making a competent runner even using up your remaining 36 Karma on top of your 22 skill points.


I did the crunch and Dwarf seems that it'd alway be better to go with a Karma point buy. 540 will get you B3/A4/R4/S3/W7/L5/I5/C2/E2/R6. A good skill spread for your main skills is 231. That's Compiling, Registering, and Sofware at 6, Computer, Cybercombat, Electronic Warfare and Hacking at 5. That leaves 29 to toy around with, and you can still get 25 more with negative qualities. You could drop secondaries to 4 and that'll give you another 35, if you wanted.

Nartaki Post

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« Reply #40 on: (11:40:48/03-18-15) »
A nice idea, and I do like the static veil thing, but I have a problem with the team work sprites.  If I were the GM, I flat out would not allow it.  I have looked over the team work rules, and it is missing a simple catchall phase, "If it makes sense".  You should not be able to use team work for all actions.  If you want Fred and Charlie to help you shift the so and so, that is fine, but if a jeweler wants to cut the perfect diamond for an engagement ring, she can't get bonus dice from the four assistants helping to hold her hands steady.  I view matrix actions as running algorithms on your deck, or techno brain, and then applying code or resonance to the task.  If two different hackers were both running algorithms to crack the protection on a file, you don't have team work, you have a race.  One hacker may hit the code key before the other, but they can't combine algorithms to run better.

If you are wanting to use sprites to stack up unlimited bonuses on a roll, then compiled sprites can add their ratting to a threading test, and this isn't team work.  You could have five sprites assisting the one threading attempt.  You would still be limited to the ratting effect of course, and they can't help with the exceeding high drain you would suffer (edge at rating one), but it is legal.  Nothing in the rules prevents using more then one sprite in this fashion, but it probably should, and I want TM's to be more powerful.

As a side note, even if the team working would work, a decker could do the same thing with 4 agents, which have all the skills you could want, and don't use up services.


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Triskavanski

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« Reply #41 on: (19:37:21/03-18-15) »
The Jeweler getting the perfect cut diamond wouldn't have the four assistants holding their hand. The four assistants would be doing other things the jeweler would need. Like http://laacs.org/laacswpste1/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/surgery2.jpg with surgery. You don't have the surgeon sitting there with six other people holding his arms to help him cut and sew someone up. One person is handing him tools. It might not seem important, but its additional work the surgeon doesn't have to do. The tools can also be maintained by the rest of the crew. They could be watching various signals and the like of the various machines that go bing, Wiping the sweat off the brow. Keeping the work station cleaned.

I doubt every single matrix action is a game of Mastermind, Even if they were, then just having a high expensive deck would allow you to crack everything and no one would ever need to actually invest in the skill. Because you're just running scripts on your deck and then sending the code it spits out. But even as a "race" many hands make light work. In the movie Hackers you've got a scene like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wXBe2jTdx4  while the effects and stuff are a little off on computers, They hack the Gibson by wearing it down, creating camouflaged actions, while one person is going after the data they needed. I don't think that software companies only need one man to program huge databases of stuff because having to would only be a race of who wins first. Looking for things online, some people check areas that others don't.

Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Hobbes

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« Reply #42 on: (19:53:00/03-18-15) »
Yep up to the GM.  RAW neither Sprites nor Agents can use team work, because RAW there is no command for Sprites to do that.  Perfectly legitimate interpretation of the rules.

RAI, lots of evidence Sprites are intended to be able to use team work.  and RAW 

"A task is basically one job you ask/tell your sprite to
do. It has to be a simple task without conditions or
heavy decision-making requirements. A single task
can be one of the following things: A single use of a
sprite power; one Combat Turn worth of Matrix actions
that apply to the same job; (snip combat stuff).  "

Essentially "Assist me on any Matrix action you can" is asking for one combat turn of Matrix actions.  Just, not right now, maybe later.  Its not a particularly broad interpretation to let Sprites work in this way.  However anyone who says RAW Sprites can't do this is correct if you take the narrowest interpretation of the rules possible.

Agents flat can't assist.  They have no capability similar to Sprites.  Agents either do a thing, or don't.  They aren't able to take  commands like Sprites and RAW unable to deal with situations outside a narrow range of pre-programed situations.  "You can have your agent perform Matrix actions for you."  Much more a stretch to let an Agent use team work.  "...one combat turn worth of matrix actions that apply to the same job.." vs. "... perform Matrix actions for you."  IMO significant difference. 

Metagame, game balance crap.  IMO deckers are cake to build, and are mechanically superior to a significant degree if you don't let Sprites use the team work rules.  Deckers can walk out of chargen with 8 Logic and 6 skills, 14 dice for each Matrix action.  Technomancers not so much.  Not only do burnt out Technomancers have similar priority needs as a Decker, they also need to pick up some Resonance along the way.  They need either more chargen resources to get to the same place Deckers are, or they need some way Resonance can boost Matrix actions.  Hey, Sprites!  I'm fairly confident if you wanted to make a Technomancer, without Sprites, that could throw as many dice at Matrix tests as a Decker you wind up with a low Resonance burn out.  Essentially a Decker with a slightly lower resource priority, but can thread a couple Complex forums at the cost meat skills and attributes.  Deckers have lower Attribute requirements and need less skills to do a better job at Matrixy stuff.  All Sprites using team work are doing is letting a Technomancer catch up to where Deckers are at for a cost of all the down time and lots of prep work and careful micro management of a herd of cats.  My inner GM figures it to be a fair trade, your and other inner GMs may not.

Darzil

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« Reply #43 on: (05:45:08/03-19-15) »
Deckers can walk out of chargen with 8 Logic and 6 skills, 14 dice for each Matrix action.
Whilst I agree with your general thrust, and I would allow Sprite teamwork tests, this actually doesn't give a Decker 14 dice on Control Device (sleaze method), Disarm Data Bomb, Hide, Jack Out, Matrix Perception, Matrix Search, Snoop, Spoof Command or Trace Icon, as these don't use Logic. If also doesn't give them 14 dice on most of their defence tests.

Hobbes

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« Reply #44 on: (10:21:36/03-19-15) »
Good point, I should have said 14 dice for Logic based Matrix actions.  Only 11 dice for Int based Matrix actions, here Deckers and Technomancers are closer to even.  Deckers have more options for raising Firewall than Technomancers though and I'd argue that in general Deckers have more discretionary character resources to boost Int based tests than Technomancers.  A specialization or two goes a long way, or picking up the +2 to a Matrix test quality (I forget the name).