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[5e] Brainstorm to improve HVAR, miniguns and such weaponry.

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Reaver

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« Reply #15 on: <01-23-15/1447:09> »
The delay action to rotate the barrels is making this gun useless AND is complete technical nonsense. It has to leave asap!

http://forums.2k.com/showthread.php?270616-Why-Are-game-developers-so-ignorant-of-how-gatling-weapons-work-that-they-add-spinup

Trust me, there is a "warm up" time. it's not as long as what they are suggesting in the rules, but it is there. 
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Squirrel

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« Reply #16 on: <01-23-15/1945:47> »
Assuming you ae correct:
Is it even remotely long enough to be of any relevance to game rules?
My observations of miniguns do not indicate any delay of any perceivable length.
Please excuse my English as it is not my first language. Misunderstandings are inevitable and smell peachy enough to be forgiven. Thank you :)

Reaver

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« Reply #17 on: <01-23-15/2034:03> »
There is no motor in existence that goes from 0rpm to 800rpm in 0.00 seconds. Without knowing the motor size and supply i can't tell you the lag time. I would imagine .25 to 1 sec for full speed.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #18 on: <01-23-15/2109:07> »
There is no motor in existence that goes from 0rpm to 800rpm in 0.00 seconds. Without knowing the motor size and supply i can't tell you the lag time. I would imagine .25 to 1 sec for full speed.
In 0.0s, no. But modern day electric motors powered by enough current to drive the load could be close enough to where it makes no practical difference.

Since we don't know what it would take to spin the barrels of a Vindicator it's hard to calculate if a real-world electric motor exists that could do the job. My money is on yes; with great power comes great torque :)

I will say that I personally think 1s is way too long from a theoretical electrical engineering point of view, but from a game mechanics point of view it really doesn't matter.

It's not like one couldn't housefule out the spin-up time if one was so inclined.
« Last Edit: <01-23-15/2110:53> by Herr Brackhaus »

Reaver

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« Reply #19 on: <01-23-15/2131:00> »
I do deal in motors all the time. They are a full 60% of an industrial electrician's job. And controlling motors and their RPM balanced by the inrush current and countermotive force, and just general electrical properties i can give you rough times, and rough current needed to get the barrels to max RPM in the least time, if i have all the variables.

The most efficient motors i know of measurable speed (800-1000 rpm, for a volume of fire of 4800-6000 rounds a minute.) Take .25 seconds under no load conditions (the drive that spins the barrels is not engaged, with the shaft of the motor) and up to 2 minutes under max load conditions. Its not as simple as "more power"...

Now game mechanics wise is this really important? That depends on the side of the agrument you sit. But as you said, if you don't want the spin in your house games, don't use it.
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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #20 on: <01-23-15/2312:29> »
I can't find any specs for the newer Dillon motors, but the original GE ones used on the M134 pulls around 60 amps on 24-28V @ 3000 rpm according to multiple websites. Higher rate of fire = higher power draw, and as one would expect the current spikes when firing begins.

That being said, I think the biggest issue I have with combat abstraction in general is the split of combat turns and how it affects certain things; a simple action for someone with one action phase represents a full 1.5s, while for someone with three action phases a simple action is a mere .5s. So the Vindicator spins up at different speeds for different characters. This more than any other concern is probably why I would just dismiss the need for spending a simple action to spin up the barrel; in short, I don't think it's a sufficiently balanced game mechanic.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #21 on: <01-23-15/2349:49> »
Used to be it was just 1 combat turn - so 3s all-around.  Eternity if you're waiting for it to go ...
Pananagutan & End/Line

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Reaver

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« Reply #22 on: <01-24-15/0248:12> »
I can't find any specs for the newer Dillon motors, but the original GE ones used on the M134 pulls around 60 amps on 24-28V @ 3000 rpm according to multiple websites. Higher rate of fire = higher power draw, and as one would expect the current spikes when firing begins.

That being said, I think the biggest issue I have with combat abstraction in general is the split of combat turns and how it affects certain things; a simple action for someone with one action phase represents a full 1.5s, while for someone with three action phases a simple action is a mere .5s. So the Vindicator spins up at different speeds for different characters. This more than any other concern is probably why I would just dismiss the need for spending a simple action to spin up the barrel; in short, I don't think it's a sufficiently balanced game mechanic.

That's not much to go off of, but i'll throw some numbers up for you:

Assuming 28VDC @ 60 rated load, 100% eff motor and 0.0 resistive load: generates 2.25 hp of work at 60hz. To go from 0 to 3000 rpm would take 11 time intervals, for a total time of 0.25 seconds.

Now the problems there are: No motor is 100% efficient. You always lose energy, usually in the form of heat. The other problem is, there is no such thing as an unresistive load. Electricity is the flow of electrons, for something to flow, it must overcome inertia to start (resistance!), then the resistance of all the other particles pressing against it (you get the idea). And so on..

Once you factor in the resistance and efficiency, the time to full rpm could be as high as 1.95 seconds (and this is assuming GE kept to its general standards as a minimum)

However, personally i can see it being closer to .4 to .6 of a second. (This is assuming the use of some complex and expensive electrical eqiupment normally only seen used on massive 2500hp+ motors.)

But that isn't a game issue. Considering the massive nerf pounding Hvar/mini guns have gotten in 5th, they do need some fixing, if only to maintain their "cool" factor.

I have always thought of these weapons as the ultimate squad support weapon. Not because of damage, but because they can totally suppress large areas of badguys easily. But in 5e they have lost that edge. There is now no reason to take a minigun or Hvar, as any assault rifle can do just as good a job.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Darzil

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« Reply #23 on: <01-24-15/0531:14> »
Nah, lets have them get up to full speed in milliseconds. Conservation of angular momentum will be hilarious!

adzling

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« Reply #24 on: <01-25-15/1429:40> »
Nice work Reaver, I likey!

And yeah, they should be the ultimate suppressive fire weapon, no doubt.

adzling

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« Reply #25 on: <01-25-15/1430:55> »
Dig it Pixel, I am pinching that for my table too, thanks.

Thank you to all who pitched in. I ended going;


(RG) "Minigun" rate of Fire; some weapons, such as the Ares HVAR rifle and GE Vindicator Minigun fire at an extreme rate of fire. To simulate this any Full Auto mode attack uses 50% extra rounds. A Simple action FA burst becomes 9 rounds and a Complex action uses 15 rounds. Also the Brain Blaster Complex Action uses 9 bullets and gives a +3 DV bonus.

(RG) The GE Vindicator Minigun fires at an insane rate of fire. In addition to using the "minigun rates" above, during Suppression the minigun uses 40 bullets. This enables the weapon to either cover twice the area OR do 1.5 times the damage (round up).

cyclopean

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« Reply #26 on: <02-11-15/0241:41> »
Yeah, I'll be using this as well, I've been looking for something to make these guns stand out a bit.