[Herr Brackhaus]

Let me ask you this, adzling. Would you agree that someone using Wall Running to run X meters up a wall will at the end of his movement be considered falling?

If so, would the rules for falling not be applicable?

I ask because the rules for climbing specify what happens when a climber falls, and a GM may allow such a character to roll Reaction + Strength test to hold on.

As such, I think a fair compromise with your contention on point 4 would be to allow an adept using Wall Running to roll Reaction + Strength to hold on to the wall, and then use Hang Time to hang on to it.

I don't necessarily believe that Wall Running could be used again after this point, personally, but it would certainly allow Adepts to gain a decent advantage on climbers if they rolled well on their Wall Running test.

[adzling]

I would let them use Hang Time to grab on and hang with a simple Gymnastics (climbing) test.

I guess reaction + str could work if there was sufficient ledges/ etc to grab onto but then you could do that without Hang Time.

Once your "Hanging" via Hang Time I'm not sold on using Wall Running from that point.
Because if you did allow it would effectively allow you to "skip" up a wall to to the top of a building.

But all this talk is making me change my mind now..... <shock!>

I dunno i guess it comes down to the gameplay effects for 0.25pp.

Running to the top of a building without a chance of falling should cost your more than 0.75 pp imho.

On the other hand Wall Running doesn't get you very high up, typically, as your roll running + str (magic) in meters up the wall.
So let's say you have Str 6 and Running 6 (i.e. you're a VERY good runner but not quite world class) then you would score 4 hits on average. That's only 4 meters or @1 story.

If you were a world class sprinter you would get str 6 + running 9 = @5hits = 5 meters/ almost two stories.

So if you were a world class sprinter and your magic was 6 you might get 5 or 6 hits per action phase and "Hang" at the end of the action phase.
Repeat, which for an adept would likely mean 2 or 3 or 4 actions per combat turn.

That equates to roughly 5 x 2 (or 3 or 4) meters up a building per 3 seconds.
Or anywhere from 10 meters to 20 meters on average every 3 seconds.
That 3 to 7 stories up a building in 3 seconds with no chance of falling!

YIKES!

[Namikaze]

I don't see a problem with someone climbing 7 floors in 3 seconds with magic.  Especially since this is a magical effect that takes the place of something else in the user's arsenal of magical effects.  Every adept has to choose carefully which powers to pick up, because they have such a tight limit.  Much like a street samurai with 'ware actually.  So if someone picks up Wall Running and Hang Time to use in this fashion, I figure that they're sacrificing some other powers to get these two.  Let them have some fun with it.  Also - magic!

[adzling]

Yeah if hang time was more expensive I would agree with you Nam.

But the utility of being able to run straight up the side of a building and drop on the roof without any fear of falling is a but much for me at that cost.

[Spooky]

So compare that adept to a wared street sam, who has to use a grapple gun to do the same thing. Adept spends magic to run up the 5 story building in @ 3 seconds. The street sam grapples and climbs using a rope, that can have a winch to help him climb, and spends nuyen to get that. He should be able to effectively walk up the building in about the same time as the adept, maybe a second or two slower. Sounds pretty fair to me. Both have to spend something to be able to go up the outside of the building in about the same amount of time.

[Herr Brackhaus]

Slightly off-topic, but the grapple gun doesn't really do much to assist with climbing except give the character using it the benefit of, well, assisted climbing. This is not insubstantial by any means, as it means a +2 dice pool, 1m per hit instead of 1m per 2 hits on the climbing test, and a chance to catch yourself if you glitch your climbing test. Except for the latter (arguably), Gecko Gloves do the exact same thing for more than half the price (except in the wet), and an adept can use them just as easily as a samurai.

[jim1701]

7 floors in 3 seconds works out to about 20 mph give or take.     That's pretty impressive.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Distances aren't all that, either.  Consider that with Wall Running you ascend 1m per hit on a Running + Strength [Magic] test.  You aren't moving upwards all that incredibly fast - even a bulked-out Troll (14 STR) with a good running (6) is going to average only 7m (2.3 stories), or be guaranteed only 5m (1.67 stories) before needing to pause.

[jim1701]

The average height for a commercial story is going to be aproximately 12 - 14 feet so you are looking at about 4m per story on average.  More for some types such as warehouses and less for residential structures that don't tend to have all the between floor crap that commercial buildings have. 

Some examples:

Sears tower: 4.1 meter avg floor height
Empire State Building: 3.7 meter average floor height
One World Trade Center: 4.0 meter average floor height
Burj Khalifa in Dubai: 5.1 meter average floor height

[adzling]

yeah checkout my math above wyrm.

hey nice post on floor heights Jim!

the impressive/ unbalancing thing is you get to run up anywhere from 10 to 20 meters in 3 seconds with no chance of falling at all....

So a world class sprinter with these powers could run to the top of the empire state building's antenna (the tippy top!) in about a minute (empire state building = 443 meters)

Reference: the elevators travel at 1000 feet per minute and take @1.5 minutes to get to the top....

At that speed you just ran outside the building all the way to the top faster than the elevators without any chance of falling....and that includes stopping for hang-time to give you the "step".

to me that IS a bit whacko for 0.75pp (0.5 for wall running + 0.25pp for one level of hang time).

[ScytheKnight]

Hmmm, welll, perhaps for those inclined to allow it, make the number of ranks in Hang Time a limiter in how many times you can use it as a anchor for Wall Running... perhaps something like Ranks +1/2 so even with just one rank you get 2 or 3 times you can push off from Hang Time, but if you want to scale taller walls you'll need to infest in more ranks.

[adzling]

eeeinteresting Scythe.

I like it when powers ability scales with investment.

I think that make sense, you can use hang-time in combination with wall running a number of times in one combat round equal to your ranks in hang-time.

So you buy one rank you can do that trick just once per combat turn...
and if you want to NOT FALL OFF you will stay where you are and not continue wall running until your next combat turn (not phase!).

or maybe someone else has a better idea?

[Rift_0f_Bladz]

I actually like the one push off per combat turn per rank. So with some investment (1.5 to 1.75pp) an adept can keep moving up a wall every pass, assuming 3 to 4 passes a turn. This reduces the whole spider-man feel without some decent investment at the cost of other high end powers, such as improved reflexes.

[ScytheKnight]

Personally was thinking a bit stricter and this being total until you reach an actual ledge/resting spot... but was mostly tossing it out there for discussion.

[adzling]

Some good stuff here Scythe thanks for chiming in.

Deffo like that whether you decide <hangs per combat round> or <hangs between ledges> the power scales with investment.

To simplify it how about you can use Hang Time as virtual steps for Wall Running a number of times equal to your Hang Time power level after which you must stop and rest for a combat turn (Hang-Timing on the side of the building for a combat turn counts as a rest).

I like that unless you invest a lot of pp in it you can't run up the side of the empire state building super fast (due to rest requirements) and even if you did invest heavily the elevator would still beat you up to the top.