[Phounix]

Hi I'm new to these board, so I'm not sure this topic has been handled yet.

We start a new game in 3 monts and we are preparing everyting. I'm reading the Combat rules because it is one of my responsabilities as a player (each player of the group studies one field of the game), and I came across a little problem. How do you use a battle grid (Squares) in the game? I can't seem to find the rules for handeling Battle grids. I've already created a large battle grid (2m - 1m) for other RPG games I played or mastered (Its a lot of work but it pays off: cover a verry lage area with board paint, then use an alcohol marker to make the squares. Now you can use chalk to draw your enviroment, and erase it when needed), and I'm working on creating Counters for Shadowrun. The following things are important rules that can affect the use of a Battle Grid.

-1 Square takes up how many meters?
-How do you handle Diagonal Movement?
-Most characters will take up one square, but how many squares does a larger character take up (example:Drones, Trolls, Spirits)?
-How do you handle reach in a Battle Grid.

[Mercer]

I'd go with 1m per square.  I'd handle diagonal movement like a certain other system (every second square of diagonal movement counts as two).

My group rarely used a grid with SR though.  I always preferred a dry erase board of chalkboard, eyeballing distances and using a ruler.  It gave combats more of an organic feel. 

[Chaemera]

Personally, I go for the hex grid, though I like the white erase idea, too.

If you look at the scatter rules (pg. 155, SR4A), it looks like they anticipated a hex grid being used.

/for distances, 1m per hex or square is plenty. Diagonals, I'd give away at 1 for 1, it doesn't make a big enough difference over the course of a single combat to worry about the weird math.

[9amJedi]

I'm just starting to use a virtual table top for our playing surface.  Gametable is pretty easy, can be very free form for drawing on the fly, and completely free, too. 

[Bradd]

My group just uses the (gridless) maps from published adventures and other sources, and we make rough measurements on that. I don't worry about exact placement of things, and it just isn't ever an issue for us.

[raggedhalo]

I've always used a dry-erase hex mat for the rare occasions I've needed a physical map.  1 hex = 1 metre, or whatever works.

[Chaemera]

Precise location became a problem for me & my gaming group after one too many GM's who had the map "all in his head", such that one minute, I was killing the baddie on the right side of the road, fifteen feet away from the rest of the party, then I was mysteriously behind and to the left, back against a tree with three baddies around me. How I got there, I had no idea, how they got there, I figured the GM wanted me dead.

One too many occasions of GMs not being able to keep their maps straight had the rest of us demanding battle-mats. And I love them, there's nothing like being able to show someone exactly what they see, and exactly how it relates to their surroundings. No questioning whether you're 3 meters  or 5 meters from the grenade that went off, look down at the mat & notice that you're min is in the hex adjacent to the penny I'm using for a grenade marker. Problem solved, roll your soak.

I'll grant, a gridless map & measuring distances could be a good way to go, then I could bust out my Lego's and build 3D battlescapes...

[KarmaInferno]

I'll grant, a gridless map & measuring distances could be a good way to go, then I could bust out my Lego's and build 3D battlescapes...

I prefer gridless and using little measuring tapes. I have a bunch of the little ones, only measure up to three feet but are tiny, a dozen could fit in your pocket.


-k

[JohnQ]

My 2 cents. Most maps I've seen seem to be in a square grid format, despite the seeming support for hex maps. I'd use a 1 square to 1 meter ratio. Reach will be 1:1 that way. Use diagonal movement as 1:1 to keep it simple. Works fine for D&D 4E. Don't allow cutting corners. Bear in mind that each IP is only a fraction of the move, not a full move. If you want a Troll to take up more than a single square, place him at an intersection point of 4 squares. The Troll is then taking up that area, so you use the 4 corners as targeting for someone around a corner. Big Drone? Same thing. Wet erase markers and a grid map and your cooking. I haven't found RAW for mini's but then again don't have all the books (pdf's) and am totally new to the 4th edition as well. I'm drawing heavily from the D&D 4E stuff.


Edited:  some wording...

[Medicineman]

I'm using Maps with Dots(2 metres Distance) from DMZ and Battletroopers

HokaHow
Medicineman

[Phounix]

Thanks for the many replies. So this is what I think we could be using:

-One Square = 1m
-Diagonal Movement costs Double
- A Troll takes up 2 by 2 squares, and all other characters take up 1 square

That leaves 2 more questions:
-How do you handle reach in a Battle Grid. Because maney weapons also provide the wielder to attack from a longer distance.
-Difficult Terrain (debi, desert sand,...) how do you handle that??

[Bradd]

"Diagonal movement costs double" effectively means that there is no diagonal movement. It's simplest to make it no extra cost, a little more realistic to make every second diagonal cost double.

[Chaemera]

"Reach" in SR4A, from everything I've seen, counts as a DP modifier and does not affect the physical distance between you and your enemy (SR4A, pg. 158).

The exact distance at which someone can engage in melee combat with any given weapon (including punching) is left completely unwritten, from what I can see (maybe Arsenal has more?).

EDIT To account for human fallibility.

[The_Gun_Nut]

I don't recommend a 1:1 ratio for space/meters.  For one thing, the problem of reach will crop up a bit too much (especially with trolls).  For another, even with the most conservative indoor/CQB environments, a hold-out pistol will be capable of hitting a target 50 spaces away.  As most battle mats have squares or hexes 1 inch across, this means that your mat will have to be 36 to 48 inches across to allow for anything other than "point-blank" or close range combat with any weapon other than small pistols.  An SMG goes out 150 meters, and an assault rifle 550 meters.  (The short ranges for both are 10 and 50 meters, respectively).

A 1:2 or 1:3 ratio would work a bit better for ranged combat, and you wouldn't have to worry about reach in close combat, as only adjacent spaces would be considered.  Then again, one can always adjust the scale on the fly, with a different scale for tight indoor areas and more spacious outdoor ones.

[Kazordan]

My group uses our laptops and a free virtual table top application called Map Tools.  Its pretty awesome and has brought our gaming to the next level.  There is even a campaign file framework for Shadowrun 4e.  This gives us a virtualy unlimited area for our battle grid,

You can download maptools at:

http://www.rptools.net/index.php?page=downloads#MapTool

And the SR4 framework is in the forums at:

http://forums.rptools.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=9002

Check it out, you will be glad you did.