[Zweiblumen]

I'm sure I'm just being dense here, but in reading the rules on first aid, you are limited to the rating of your skill for the number of boxes healed.  Then under the medkit/autodoc section it says you can do this untrained with Intuition -1 + device rating x 2.  But does that mean you heal 0 boxes of damage as you're limited to "The maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill’s ratng"?

RAI for me would be that you add the rating of the medkit to your skill for figuring out the maximum healed, but from what I'm seeing RAW is if you are unskilled you heal 0 damage.

I'm pretty dense and miss lots of things (just ask Tecumseh!), and I'm sure this has been discussed I just wasn't able to figure it out on my own.

[jim1701]

I'm sure I'm just being dense here, but in reading the rules on first aid, you are limited to the rating of your skill for the number of boxes healed.  Then under the medkit/autodoc section it says you can do this untrained with Intuition -1 + device rating x 2.  But does that mean you heal 0 boxes of damage as you're limited to "The maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill’s ratng"?

RAI for me would be that you add the rating of the medkit to your skill for figuring out the maximum healed, but from what I'm seeing RAW is if you are unskilled you heal 0 damage.

I'm pretty dense and miss lots of things (just ask Tecumseh!), and I'm sure this has been discussed I just wasn't able to figure it out on my own.

Using the medkit unskilled is a contradiction with the rules which probably needs to be posted in the errata section.  You did misquote a little there.  First on page 208 it  say (Logic -1) + Rating if you are defaulting and that is a contradiction with the rules on page 206 which probably needs to be posted in the errata section.  However, it also says if you using the medkit/autodoc in unattended mode it is just Rating x 2 and in that case the rating would be used as the skill level to determine the boxes healed.  This is assuming of course that the medkit is operating wirelessly. 

[Tarislar]

I figured this might be easier to understand with some examples.


Medkit Basic:  Add Rating to Mental Limit

Assuming an NPC Paramedic with the following stats.  Wil-3, Int-3, Log-4, First Aid-4.  (Mental Limit = 14/3 = 5)  Using Rating-2 Kit.
Rolling 8 Dice.  Maximum of 5 Hits allowed.  Modified to 7 by Kit.
First 2 Don't count as they are absorbed in threshold.
Most that can be healed is 4
So, if by some miracle all 8 dice were hits.  A Maximum of 7 could be kept.  And of those, only 5 are applied to actual healing.  And the most # of Boxes that can be healed is 4 based on skill level.
The Average # of hits (almost 3) means we will likely see only 1 box healed.

Really the only reason to not turn on wireless is if you are under assault by deckers that might take over your medkit.


Medkit Wireless:  Add Rating to Dice Pool & Mental Limit.
Now we get to better benefits.
Using the same Paramedic this time with a Rating-3 better kit & turned on wireless so now we throw 8+3= 11 Dice.
Limited to 8 total hits & of them only 4 can be healed but the extra 3 dice means getting to those caps might actually be possible sometimes and at least the average # of hits goes up to 4 for a total of 2 boxes healed.  So the Medkit had some positive affect here.


Medkit Autodoc/Wireless:  Rating x2 Dice,  Rating = Limit.
Finally the autodoc, what most Shadowrunners will want to have on hand.    For this, 2 Examples.

Rating-3 Kit to fit in a pocket.  (Oversized Wallet in dimensions, maybe a large screen cell phone but thicker)
Throwing Ratingx2 = 6 Dice.  Keeping a Maximum of 3 Hits.  First 2 Hits absorbed in threshold.  Healing a Maximum of 3 Boxes.
Rating 3 Kit would need 3 Hits to heal 1 box of damage.  It will never heal more than 1 box of damage & that its uncommon to even hit that.
Rating 1-2 kits are useless for this method.

Rating-6 Kit to fit in a bag.
    (I'm sure you've seen these, they are a smaller than a laptop but 2x as thick or more.  Too big for a pocket but very small for a backpack.)
Now we get to a maxed out R-6 Kit in a bag. 
Throwing Rating x2 Dice = 12.  You get to keep up to 6 Hits & after the 1st 2 hits are discarded heal up to 4 Boxes.  (6 Max Boxes would never be hit)
Average use of this method gets you 2 boxed healed.


Rating-3 Kits on Wireless are a good investment for anyone that already has solid Logic & First Aid levels as they are small.
For purely Autodoc functions you are going to want a Rating 5+ kit .

Then under the medkit/autodoc section it says you can do this untrained with Intuition -1 + device rating x 2.  But does that mean you heal 0 boxes of damage as you're limited to "The maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill’s ratng"?

RAI for me would be that you add the rating of the medkit to your skill for figuring out the maximum healed, but from what I'm seeing RAW is if you are unskilled you heal 0 damage.

Just realized where you were reading this.
Yeah, it is odd that for "Untrained" it seems to let you add Rating to First Aid skill v/s Dice Pool

I agree, I'd add a line to clarify that the "Limit" that they add to is both "Mental/Hits" limit and "Skill/Boxes" limit .

Another way to read it is that when doing it w/o skill that the only result you can get is to "Stabilize" the patient ?

Oddly, I just noticed that Pg 205 says First Aid can ONLY be used if you have a Medkit (Even if it has no supplies?) which is odd, never noticed that before.

[Zweiblumen]

I'm sure I'm just being dense here, but in reading the rules on first aid, you are limited to the rating of your skill for the number of boxes healed.  Then under the medkit/autodoc section it says you can do this untrained with Intuition -1 + device rating x 2.  But does that mean you heal 0 boxes of damage as you're limited to "The maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill’s ratng"?

RAI for me would be that you add the rating of the medkit to your skill for figuring out the maximum healed, but from what I'm seeing RAW is if you are unskilled you heal 0 damage.

I'm pretty dense and miss lots of things (just ask Tecumseh!), and I'm sure this has been discussed I just wasn't able to figure it out on my own.

Using the medkit unskilled is a contradiction with the rules which probably needs to be posted in the errata section.  You did misquote a little there.  First on page 208 it  say (Logic -1) + Rating if you are defaulting and that is a contradiction with the rules on page 206 which probably needs to be posted in the errata section.  However, it also says if you using the medkit/autodoc in unattended mode it is just Rating x 2 and in that case the rating would be used as the skill level to determine the boxes healed.  This is assuming of course that the medkit is operating wirelessly. 

Yes, I mixed two lines.  Sorry about that.  On P. 208 it says Intuition - 1 (though shouldn't that be Logic?) OR if the medkit is running auto by itself it's device rating x 2.  Which still doesn't answer my question of how many boxes that would heal.  RAW it's 0, but that doesn't make any sense.  Why would you spend a complex action to no effect unless you critically glitch in which case you make it worse.  Doesn't seem logical, but as written, you can't heal any more boxes than your skill.  And the medkit (not the autodoc) has 0 skill even though it says specifically that a medkit running wireless can make the roll.  I'm still confused.

I figured this might be easier to understand with some examples.


Medkit Basic:  Add Rating to Mental Limit

Assuming an NPC Paramedic with the following stats.  Wil-3, Int-3, Log-4, First Aid-4.  (Mental Limit = 14/3 = 5)  Using Rating-2 Kit.
Rolling 8 Dice.  Maximum of 5 Hits allowed.  Modified to 7 by Kit.
First 2 Don't count as they are absorbed in threshold.
Most that can be healed is 4
So, if by some miracle all 8 dice were hits.  A Maximum of 7 could be kept.  And of those, only 5 are applied to actual healing.  And the most # of Boxes that can be healed is 4 based on skill level.
The Average # of hits (almost 3) means we will likely see only 1 box healed.

Really the only reason to not turn on wireless is if you are under assault by deckers that might take over your medkit.


Medkit Wireless:  Add Rating to Dice Pool & Mental Limit.
Now we get to better benefits.
Using the same Paramedic this time with a Rating-3 better kit & turned on wireless so now we throw 8+3= 11 Dice.
Limited to 8 total hits & of them only 4 can be healed but the extra 3 dice means getting to those caps might actually be possible sometimes and at least the average # of hits goes up to 4 for a total of 2 boxes healed.  So the Medkit had some positive affect here.


Medkit Autodoc/Wireless:  Rating x2 Dice,  Rating = Limit.
Finally the autodoc, what most Shadowrunners will want to have on hand.    For this, 2 Examples.

Rating-3 Kit to fit in a pocket.  (Oversized Wallet in dimensions, maybe a large screen cell phone but thicker)
Throwing Ratingx2 = 6 Dice.  Keeping a Maximum of 3 Hits.  First 2 Hits absorbed in threshold.  Healing a Maximum of 3 Boxes.
Rating 3 Kit would need 3 Hits to heal 1 box of damage.  It will never heal more than 1 box of damage & that its uncommon to even hit that.
Rating 1-2 kits are useless for this method.

Rating-6 Kit to fit in a bag.
    (I'm sure you've seen these, they are a smaller than a laptop but 2x as thick or more.  Too big for a pocket but very small for a backpack.)
Now we get to a maxed out R-6 Kit in a bag. 
Throwing Rating x2 Dice = 12.  You get to keep up to 6 Hits & after the 1st 2 hits are discarded heal up to 4 Boxes.  (6 Max Boxes would never be hit)
Average use of this method gets you 2 boxed healed.


Rating-3 Kits on Wireless are a good investment for anyone that already has solid Logic & First Aid levels as they are small.
For purely Autodoc functions you are going to want a Rating 5+ kit .

Then under the medkit/autodoc section it says you can do this untrained with Intuition -1 + device rating x 2.  But does that mean you heal 0 boxes of damage as you're limited to "The maximum damage healable with the First Aid skill is equal to the skill’s ratng"?

RAI for me would be that you add the rating of the medkit to your skill for figuring out the maximum healed, but from what I'm seeing RAW is if you are unskilled you heal 0 damage.

Just realized where you were reading this.
Yeah, it is odd that for "Untrained" it seems to let you add Rating to First Aid skill v/s Dice Pool

I agree, I'd add a line to clarify that the "Limit" that they add to is both "Mental/Hits" limit and "Skill/Boxes" limit .

Another way to read it is that when doing it w/o skill that the only result you can get is to "Stabilize" the patient ?

Oddly, I just noticed that Pg 205 says First Aid can ONLY be used if you have a Medkit (Even if it has no supplies?) which is odd, never noticed that before.

Yeah, I understand how it works when applied to someone with a first aid skill rating (though having less than a 3 probably isn't all that helpful except in the most extreme of circumstances).  The problem is when it's untrained.  Why would they have rules specifically for doing something that was guarenteed to be unhelpful at best?  It makes sense that if there are supplies in the medkit you get to add the rating of the medkit to your rating for number of boxes healed?  Then carrying around a rating 6 medkit with 1 rank in the skill would allow you to heal a max of 7 boxes (hard to roll that much unless you've got a fairly high logic) which seems a bit overpowered, though you are carrying a large breifcase with you everywhere you go.

* Zweiblumen is still confused

[jim1701]

As to page 208 you they must have fixed the pdf when they updated the errata because mine says logic -1 not intuition.  As to the medkit's healing limit the RAW would say the number of boxes healed would be equal to the rating of the medkit because that is what the medkit's skill rating is considered to be when it run in auto mode.  You have to consider it to be a type of drone in this situation.  If that explanation is not good enough I don't know what to tell you.  Sorry.

[Zweiblumen]

As to page 208 you they must have fixed the pdf when they updated the errata because mine says logic -1 not intuition.  As to the medkit's healing limit the RAW would say the number of boxes healed would be equal to the rating of the medkit because that is what the medkit's skill rating is considered to be when it run in auto mode.  You have to consider it to be a type of drone in this situation.  If that explanation is not good enough I don't know what to tell you.  Sorry.

Ahah!  Found the magic words on P 208 "and the device’s rating in place of her First Aid skill."  So by this standard, you are better of having someone untrained using a rating 6 medkit than having someone with a rating 1-4 first aid using a rating 6 medkit.

(all assume wireless is on)
Person A: Logic 4 FirstAid 0 Medkit 6 - 9 dice max recovered boxes = 6
Person B: Logic 4 FirstAid 1 Medkit 6 -11 dice max recovered boxes = 1
Person C: Logic 4 FirstAid 4 Medkit 6 - 14 dice max recovered boxes = 4
Person D: Logic 4 FirstAid 6 Medkit 6 - 16 dice max recovered boxes = 6

Can a trained person substitute the Medkit rating for theirs in order to heal the max number of boxes?  That way if Person C is using a rating 2 medkit, they are better using their skill, but if they happen to come across a rating 6 medkit they can benefit from that?

[Tarislar]

Found the magic words on P 208 "and the device’s rating in place of her First Aid skill."  So by this standard, you are better of having someone untrained using a rating 6 medkit than having someone with a rating 1-4 first aid using a rating 6 medkit.

(all assume wireless is on)
Person A: Logic 4 FirstAid 0 Medkit 6 - 9 dice max recovered boxes = 6
Person B: Logic 4 FirstAid 1 Medkit 6 -11 dice max recovered boxes = 1
Person C: Logic 4 FirstAid 4 Medkit 6 - 14 dice max recovered boxes = 4
Person D: Logic 4 FirstAid 6 Medkit 6 - 16 dice max recovered boxes = 6

Can a trained person substitute the Medkit rating for theirs in order to heal the max number of boxes?  That way if Person C is using a rating 2 medkit, they are better using their skill, but if they happen to come across a rating 6 medkit they can benefit from that? 

This is why I was saying that the "Limit" bonus needs to apply to both Mental Limit & Skill Level Limit.
 That is how I'd read it at my table if I ran a table.
  Using a Medkit in NON-Autodoc form should never be better untrained than trained.

[jim1701]

As to page 208 you they must have fixed the pdf when they updated the errata because mine says logic -1 not intuition.  As to the medkit's healing limit the RAW would say the number of boxes healed would be equal to the rating of the medkit because that is what the medkit's skill rating is considered to be when it run in auto mode.  You have to consider it to be a type of drone in this situation.  If that explanation is not good enough I don't know what to tell you.  Sorry.

Ahah!  Found the magic words on P 208 "and the device’s rating in place of her First Aid skill."  So by this standard, you are better of having someone untrained using a rating 6 medkit than having someone with a rating 1-4 first aid using a rating 6 medkit.

(all assume wireless is on)
Person A: Logic 4 FirstAid 0 Medkit 6 - 9 dice max recovered boxes = 6
Person B: Logic 4 FirstAid 1 Medkit 6 -11 dice max recovered boxes = 1
Person C: Logic 4 FirstAid 4 Medkit 6 - 14 dice max recovered boxes = 4
Person D: Logic 4 FirstAid 6 Medkit 6 - 16 dice max recovered boxes = 6

Can a trained person substitute the Medkit rating for theirs in order to heal the max number of boxes?  That way if Person C is using a rating 2 medkit, they are better using their skill, but if they happen to come across a rating 6 medkit they can benefit from that?

You always have the option of letting the medkit do all the work AFAIK. 

[Zweiblumen]

Found the magic words on P 208 "and the device’s rating in place of her First Aid skill."  So by this standard, you are better of having someone untrained using a rating 6 medkit than having someone with a rating 1-4 first aid using a rating 6 medkit.

(all assume wireless is on)
Person A: Logic 4 FirstAid 0 Medkit 6 - 9 dice max recovered boxes = 6
Person B: Logic 4 FirstAid 1 Medkit 6 -11 dice max recovered boxes = 1
Person C: Logic 4 FirstAid 4 Medkit 6 - 14 dice max recovered boxes = 4
Person D: Logic 4 FirstAid 6 Medkit 6 - 16 dice max recovered boxes = 6

Can a trained person substitute the Medkit rating for theirs in order to heal the max number of boxes?  That way if Person C is using a rating 2 medkit, they are better using their skill, but if they happen to come across a rating 6 medkit they can benefit from that? 

This is why I was saying that the "Limit" bonus needs to apply to both Mental Limit & Skill Level Limit.
 That is how I'd read it at my table if I ran a table.
  Using a Medkit in NON-Autodoc form should never be better untrained than trained.

I think I agree in principle.  What you're saying is that RAI would work like this (as it just makes more sense):
Person A: Logic 4 FirstAid 0 Medkit 6 - 9 dice max recovered boxes = 6
Person B: Logic 4 FirstAid 1 Medkit 6 - 11 dice max recovered boxes = 7
Person C: Logic 4 FirstAid 4 Medkit 6 - 14 dice max recovered boxes = 10
Person D: Logic 4 FirstAid 6 Medkit 6 - 16 dice max recovered boxes = 12

Sorry if I'm being pendantic, just trying to wrap my head around what the book says vs what it should say

You always have the option of letting the medkit do all the work AFAIK. 

Yes, but to what extent?  Basically, is it ever worth having firstaid at less than a 5?  Obviously there's an advantage to being better than the autodoc/medkit can be, but that's a big investment in skills.  I think going with Tarislar's RAI makes the most sense and I'm trying to figure out if that's been fixed anywhere to be RAW?

[8-bit]

Yes, but to what extent?  Basically, is it ever worth having firstaid at less than a 5?  Obviously there's an advantage to being better than the autodoc/medkit can be, but that's a big investment in skills.  I think going with Tarislar's RAI makes the most sense and I'm trying to figure out if that's been fixed anywhere to be RAW?

Yes? 4 would be the lowest I would go, and I would only go that high on a Decker or Rigger (basically, 6+ Logic). Although, First Aid 6 + Logic 8 (or 9) + Medkit 6 is pretty nifty.

[Top Dog]

Wouldn't person A (and probably person B) have 12 dice? You're running it in wireless mode anyway, so it'd be better to use it autonomously, and that means it has Device as skill with a bonus of Device (so device*2, but ignoring player stats altogether). Person C wouldn't benefit from it anymore (the medkit would still have 12 dice).

I'm not sure what RAI are with regards to max recovered boxes, and I'm pretty sure RAW is that person B would get a max of 1 (and person A, in your example, a max of 0; only an autonomous medkit would ever make sense for an untrained character). Then again I think RAW is silly and shouldn't be followed; our table follows Tarislar's method instead and I think that's the only sensible way to rule it (for the reason he mentioned).

Low-level First Aid is still useful in either interpretation - especially for high-logic characters - as it allows you to First Aid where wireless isn't an option (spam zone or with nasty enemy deckers around), or when you don't have a rating 6 medkit (remember, it's a relatively expensive and large piece of kit; most runners will have access to one on a run, but perhaps not always at the ready, and street characters might not have one). And with Tarislar's limits, a high-logic character doesn't need much skill to beat a autonomous medkit (my magician has skill 4, and properly prepared has a dice pool of 20).

[Darzil]

I feel that use the higher of First Aid skill and Medkit rating as the limit to boxes healed seems most balanced to me. Will suggest it to my GM.

Actually, adding medkit rating to that limit as well as limit makes sense. Won't often come into play, but might for someone with high mental limit and low first aid.

[Tarislar]

I think I agree in principle.  What you're saying is that RAI would work like this (as it just makes more sense):
Person A: Logic 4 FirstAid 0 Medkit 6 - 9 dice max recovered boxes = 6
Person B: Logic 4 FirstAid 1 Medkit 6 - 11 dice max recovered boxes = 7
Person C: Logic 4 FirstAid 4 Medkit 6 - 14 dice max recovered boxes = 10
Person D: Logic 4 FirstAid 6 Medkit 6 - 16 dice max recovered boxes = 12

Sorry if I'm being pendantic, just trying to wrap my head around what the book says vs what it should say

Your not being pedantic at all. 
The rule for Unskilled use of First Aid w/ Kit doesn't seem to follow the rest of the rules or make sense.
By applying it to both limits,  Mental & Skill then at least it will work to some extent as described.

Especially for when you have a small kit on you v/s a larger maxed Rating 6.

So here are my 2 untrained examples using the limit interpretation above.


Example A:  The Combat Decker  (Good Logic / Small Kit)
Logic-6,  First Aid-0,  Rating-3 Medkit (Wireless),  Mental Limit 7:
Throw 8 Dice.  Keep 7+3 = 10.  Heal up to 3 Boxes.

Example B:  The Shaman  (Low Logic / Big Kit)
Logic-2,  First Aid-0,   Rating-6 Medkit  (Wireless+Autodoc),  Mental Limit 5
Throw 12 Dice.  Keep 6 hits.  Max Boxes will be 6-2=4 after Threshold.

Option A is now at least closer to Option B in power.
If we don't apply limit to skill as well then the Decker can't heal at all.
Meanwhile it means having any Kit below about a 5 in Autodoc is useless.

Yeah, I like this idea of how to read the word "Limit" works out.

Edited to fix a dice pool error.

[Zweiblumen]

I like the concept, but how does example A get 10 dice?  Shouldn't be 8? Logic - 1 + 3 (rating of the medkit)  Still better than the 6 the medkit would get on its own.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.  Though for your table, do you stack the skill and rating, or use higher of the two for # of boxes healed?  I'd think higher of the two was more reasonable.  Being able to heal 12 boxes of damage in 12 combat turns straight out of chargen seems a bit.... overpowered.

Thus we end up with
Example A: Logic 6 First Aid 0 Medkit 6 = 11 dice/up to 6 boxes healed
Example B: Logic 4 First Aid 4 Medkit 4 = 12 dice/up to 4 boxes healed (making it still worth while to get the extra dice so as to be able to hit those limits... see Example C)
Example C: Logic 6 First Aid 6 Medkit 6 = 18 dice/upto 6 boxes healed (having 12 boxes at this point, though unlikely to HIT that number seems overkill IMHO)

[Tarislar]

I like the concept, but how does example A get 10 dice?  Shouldn't be 8? Logic - 1 + 3 (rating of the medkit)  Still better than the 6 the medkit would get on its own.

It doesn't.  Typo