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Run Faster Out!

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #45 on: <12-20-14/1017:57> »
Uhm, you may want to edit that post because it doesn't seem fair to be that harsh.

On subject, I must admit that I consider AIs and Free Spirits to be rather problematic player-characters, and the same goes for Drakes. I can imagine they were cut due to being too complicated right now, and while I imagine AIs may become PCs in Data Trails, I do not know about the other two. If that is a deal-breaker for people, then that is their fair right though I myself do not share their concerns.
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Fedifensor

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« Reply #46 on: <12-20-14/1112:00> »
I just want to say that I was expecting point-buy, but the "sum to 10" character creation is both unexpected and brilliant!

Sendaz

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« Reply #47 on: <12-20-14/1124:19> »
I will wager they are parsing it out a bit more.  AI PC may probably see a return with Data Trails as this will be tieing up some loose ends as well as offering more options for all things Matrixy.

While it may have been nice to see Drakes, they may still be overhauling these, hopefully using a system similar to the new Infected way to grow.  And you may want to houserule something using that system's idea in the meantime.

The Sum to 10 idea is growing on me as it gives a little more room to tweak to taste.
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Fable

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« Reply #48 on: <12-20-14/1133:16> »
Annnd apparently if you had someone who played an AI or a Free Spirit in 4th, you're still screwed. Thanks for making it easier to NOT buy your 5th ed books, guys. If I can't convert my party across, I'm not buying it.

Wow...  I wasn't aware that AIs, Free Spirits, and Drakes were so popular as to stop books from being sold to two people.  I suppose two people would probably have been worth adding a bunch more stuff to the book and increasing the cost, time to completion, etc.  Cause yeah - the two people who give a crap about those sapients are definitely the ones that Catalyst wants to target.

 ::)

To head anyone off, I realize that two complainers aren't the whole of the world of people who might have issue with this.  But given the ratio of complainers :: non-complainers, it seems obvious that the complainers are a small minority.  Why would anyone be surprised when their less-than-popular, annoyingly special snowflake characters aren't covered in a book designed for the majority?

Maybe because those "annoyingly special snowflake characters", which were, by the way, official options the publisher put out, WERE covered in the 4th edition version of this very same book. Expecting the 5th edition version of the Runners Companion to cover the same core topics the 4th did? Clearly, I am a madwoman.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #49 on: <12-20-14/1208:21> »
The same core topics, that expectation has been met. But every option still existing, yes that expectation I would personally consider one of a madwoman. The books so far have established that they have not feared postponing some things or cutting them altogether. So we know that some qualities, or types, or spells, or weapon modification options are gone and may or may not return in the future.
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callmedinosaur

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« Reply #50 on: <12-20-14/1216:01> »
Annnd apparently if you had someone who played an AI or a Free Spirit in 4th, you're still screwed. Thanks for making it easier to NOT buy your 5th ed books, guys. If I can't convert my party across, I'm not buying it.

Wow...  I wasn't aware that AIs, Free Spirits, and Drakes were so popular as to stop books from being sold to two people.  I suppose two people would probably have been worth adding a bunch more stuff to the book and increasing the cost, time to completion, etc.  Cause yeah - the two people who give a crap about those sapients are definitely the ones that Catalyst wants to target.

 ::)

To head anyone off, I realize that two complainers aren't the whole of the world of people who might have issue with this.  But given the ratio of complainers :: non-complainers, it seems obvious that the complainers are a small minority.  Why would anyone be surprised when their less-than-popular, annoyingly special snowflake characters aren't covered in a book designed for the majority?

Maybe because those "annoyingly special snowflake characters", which were, by the way, official options the publisher put out, WERE covered in the 4th edition version of this very same book. Expecting the 5th edition version of the Runners Companion to cover the same core topics the 4th did? Clearly, I am a madwoman.

ok wow that escalated quickly, could we maybe not continue this as a fight or with all the hostility that it started with, AI and Free spirits were both character options in 4th and just writing them off as special snowflakes is kinda lame when talking about playing a role-playing game, i've seen people play the classic hobo with a shotgun as a 'special snowflake' it's an at table dynamic issue not a character option issue anything that exists in the setting, is balanced with the rest of the party, and is sentient can make for a compelling story opportunity and i don't see why it's an issue.

on the other hand just because something was in a 4th corebook doesn't mean that we're entitled to it being in the 5th corebook for the same subject. run faster is not just a refit of runner's companion for 5, it's a new book, assembled differently and handles a lot of similar material as runner's companion, but is very different in approach and content. honestly a big annoyance for me last edition was with 4th having AI options in runner's along with a completely separate set of AI npc section in unwired, i didn't make sense and split the material in a way that didn't work quite right, the matrix is the biggest overhaul of 5th, the matrix will take the most effort of the core books to write (though the things they changed in run faster god that must have taken a lot too) and having the AI character rules in book and cohesive with the full matrix rules makes so much more sense then parceling them out separate. as for free spirits i don't really know where they belong, their structure is so different from any other character type even ai, and given their knowledge-base and the real inability of the shadowrun setting to give us a clear understanding of the nature of spirits and the metaplanes (which is fantastic by the way and is one of the most compelling bits of magic in the setting) i just don't know how appropriate they are for players, and that's coming from someone that's willing to work with players playing toxics or insect shamans even.

 i know it's pretty lame that they were supported and now aren't and some of your players are hung out to dry from it. but can we just be respectful of each other, i mean if we're on this forum we all really love shadowrun, like coming at people for being excited about it when you're disappointed isn't cool, same as responding to that with even more aggressiveness. can we just like not escalate.
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incrdbil

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« Reply #51 on: <12-20-14/1235:37> »
Just because something was in a prior edition doesn't mean it should be around.  The elimination of much of the nanite technology I've very happy with, and fringes, problem causing characters like AI's, free spirits, and drakes can be added to the pile of items the game, for most GM's, can do without. If you really have to have such odd, unbalanced things, then simply convert on your own, and don't waste space in such an essential product for items with virtually no appeal top the overwhelming majority of campaigns.

Critias

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« Reply #52 on: <12-20-14/1410:42> »
I just want to say that I was expecting point-buy, but the "sum to 10" character creation is both unexpected and brilliant!
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DeathStrobe

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« Reply #53 on: <12-20-14/1513:39> »
Honestly, after reading the section on the new generation systems, I want my money back. Not having true Build Point, but rather just a re-named Karma Generation, strange new version of Priority and a weird generation system like those modules is really a deal breaker.

The qualities seem all right and the advanced lifestyle is nice to have back, but when the one thing one purchases the product for is not present...

You bought it just for build point system, and are upset that Karma gen isn't BP? That doesn't make any sense to me, what advantage does BP have over karma gen when they mechanically work the exact same only with more math to convert BP to karma or back. What can you do with BP that can't be done with karma gen?

8-bit

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« Reply #54 on: <12-20-14/1518:25> »
I was expecting both to be present, and not having both is a complete deal breaker.

I don't know what to say, since that is unfortunate that you were disappointed. Doesn't make it a bad book, just not what you were looking for.

8-bit

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« Reply #55 on: <12-20-14/1533:24> »
I was expecting both to be present, and not having both is a complete deal breaker.

I don't know what to say, since that is unfortunate that you were disappointed. Doesn't make it a bad book, just not what you were looking for.

Actually it does. The good parts (qualities and advanced lifestyle) could have easily been done in a smaller publication for just them, and the same could be said for the meta-variants and Infected--don't really care one way or the other for that section as I don't ever use those things, but some do, and Mr. Goodman tends to do pretty good.

So, because every section of the book can be split into separate books, which would likely have different release dates and be horribly inconvenient and annoying for practically everyone, it makes the book bad? I could say the same for what you were looking for. They could have just created a mini-book with 2-4 different character creation systems.

Instead, what they did is put all of that stuff (minus BP building ... which you could just play 4th for or convert it yourself, it's not that hard; it's basically the exact same) into something convenient for all of us who don't want 60 books at our table to play the game.

Namikaze

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« Reply #56 on: <12-20-14/1727:02> »
*quote clipped*

*quote clipped*


*quote clipped*

There's no reason to think that you won't see AIs, Free Spirits, and Drakes back in the game as playable characters in later content updates.  Fact is, I wasn't trying to single anyone out - that's why I have included all three of the "special snowflakes" that weren't included in my list.  I can think of several reasons why some content wasn't included in this book.  I was not trying to piss anyone off.  I was pointing out, in my own convoluted fashion, that these three types of characters weren't tremendously popular (to my knowledge) and therefore may have been cut out of this book for just that reason.  If anyone took that personally, I apologize - that was not my intention.  As I stated, nothing that I said was intended to be personal.

Let's be clear, this topic is important, so I tend to treat it as such.  I do not jump to conclusions, and I refuse to make a decision without sufficient evidence.  There have been people on these forums (thankfully they haven't appeared recently) that have argued that the existence of the Shadow Spells PDF and the content within it (some of which was deliberately taken out of Street Grimoire) was some sort of conspiracy to get us to buy more stuff.  If I seem aggressive in my defense of the decision to remove content that was in Runner's Companion, it's simply because I have gotten into these kinds of arguments in the past and I want to head them off before they go down the crazy rabbit hole.

Now to discuss why some content from Runner's Companion is not present in Run Faster.  I'll start with one of my favorite quotes:  "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor.  Another great one is this: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." - Argument from Ignorance.  Between those two cautionary logical positions, there can be myriad reasons why the content wasn't included.  But the one that seems least likely to be the case is that Catalyst has decided to forgo support of this content completely.  Is it possible?  Sure.  But is it likely?  Not really.

In many cases, the main content books have been Missions-legal (with a few changes), whereas the PDF books are not Missions-legal.  So the decision may have been made to put these character types in later content for just that reason too.  Or perhaps they got to 255 pages and decided that enough was enough?  Or maybe they decided that those rules needed more work?  Or...  Or...  you get my point.  There are probably dozens of reasons why something doesn't go into a book.  And probably three or four of them that are correct.

But rather than discuss it logically, people like to jump to conclusions.  People like to assume that the lack of content for ... say, a German life module, would indicate that Catalyst is somehow not supporting German-related content.  It's just not logical to leap to these types of conclusions based on the lack of evidence.
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Medicineman

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« Reply #57 on: <12-20-14/1757:07> »
Quote
People like to assume that the lack of content for ... say, a German life module, would indicate that Catalyst is somehow not supporting German-related content. 

Well, it gives the Pegasus guys something to write on their own and to add to the content of Running faster :)

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Ryo

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« Reply #58 on: <12-20-14/1800:17> »
I won't be as vitriolic about it as some others here, but I will add my voice to the complaints at the lack of AI and Free Spirit player character options. I wanted to get Run Faster for three reasons, in order.

1. AI PC options

2. Free Spirit PC options

3. A Karma Gen that was balanced to Priority

And it sounds like this book disappoints me on all three, from what I've heard. No AI or Free Spirits, and Karma Gen gives you too little Karma to make character equivalent to what Priority can do.

It's not simply a case of players wanting to be special snowflakes, these rules also help create NPCs that are unique and interesting, but still balanced to the same level as a player character. In the games I run, I have multiple AI characters that turn up, a few Free Spirits of important note, as well as a lot of Infected, Changelings and other things. I feel these kinds of characters are just as important to the feel of Shadowrun as an elf or a troll, and greatly expands the world we all enjoy to play with.

The absence of AI is especially troubling to me, and I strongly hope they reemerge in Data Trails with in depth creation rules. There are plenty of options to explore the magical side of the Shadowrun world, with all kinds of paracritters and metasapients running around, but there is very little of the sci-fi side. I want AI, I want robots. Maybe even some Aliens, although I won't hold my breath on that.

Granted, I'll probably buy this book anyway. I've bought every book Catalyst has put out so far, and it does sound like Run Faster has a lot more to offer that I will enjoy. But I am still disappointed.
« Last Edit: <12-20-14/1802:14> by Ryo »

Namikaze

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« Reply #59 on: <12-20-14/1804:23> »
You bring up a good point Ryo.  And I too hope to see additional content for AIs and such when Data Trails comes out.  I think that in hindsight, it would have been better to release Run Faster right after the main book, then books like Data Trails and Street Grimoire could have added content to Run Faster's character creation modules.  And I would imagine that location-specific books will have new lifestyle options and such too.  I wonder if anyone at Catalyst sees it how I do?  Run Faster is such a great book, but the timing could have been better in the long run for it to have come out first.
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