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Expansions - is there anything we can really expect?

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Dancer

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« on: <11-29-14/0844:03> »
I'm just wondering about the potential for expansion decks. It should be really easy to get some great things with really simple extra decks.
Imagine a  "character expansion" done right.
Say adding a Rigger, Adept, or Shaman.
A deck which adds 24 new Black Market cards, 10 Normal and 10 Hard Obstacle cards, and 10 new crossfire cards (Replacing the ones which reference specific roles with ones referencing the new role). That's a 54-card deck that can come in a standard size box. It adds the option for an extra runner above 4, or for replacing one of the existing roles. Simple, elegant, and probably a good way to use up ALL THAT EXTRA SPACE IN THE BOX, huh?

I'd certainly pay £10 each for this kind of expansion deck. I know some of my players probably would too, in order to get their hands on roles that don't come in the vanilla box.

So what kind of expansions to the game *can* we really expect to see? We've already had one-off crossfire cards, so certainly crossfire expansion decks are not out of the question. I expect more varied obstacles and Bosses would be something down the line as well, possibly accompanying new missions in themed expansions.
Any thoughts? Insights? I imagine anything along these lines is still under wraps due to being too early in development, but my speculative juices are flowing since this game has a lot of untapped potential and the whole Shadowrun setting to draw on for inspiration. We have a Vampire in our obstacle deck, but no Ghoul, Goblin, or Wendigo. We have a Decker role but no Rigger.  We have Dragons for high Karma players to take on, why not add  Cultist obstacles, horrible reality-bending Crossfire cards, and a Horror boss intended for 120+Karma players to face off against be eaten by?

Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #1 on: <11-29-14/1047:57> »
Don't count on anything being called out as Horrors anytime soon, since that's Earthdawn-specific and CGL/Topps doesn't own that.  Plenty of big bogeymen can eat the face off a 150-Karma team, though:  Blood Cult (good luck in Aztlan), Insect Queen (revival of the Universal Brotherhood?), Shedim Master (yes, I had to go there), Ghoul Nest (holding off the Krieger strain long enough to survive?).

I think your idea for the expansion deck is about the only way we'll see enough expansions to fill the dividers in that big Crossfire box.  In this way, Crossfire is the opposite of nearly every other game out there, which outgrows its dividers at the first expansion.  That main box probably should have been 1/3 to 1/2 its size, maybe about the size of the race/mission cards, and make the rulebook that size.  £10 sounds probably about right for your expansion.  The SR Gear/Spell Card boxes were 54 cards for $9.99, and I think more art will go into this expansion to match the art on the Crossfire cards, so something between $14.99 and $19.99?  I imagine at some point they'll put out a general "House of Pain" deck with more obstacles and event cards for next-level runners.

And it seems like people around here have been clamoring for a large-table option (at least 6 players), and there has been talk of options for putting two boxes together.  I'm not sure how well this game would handle more than 6 players while keeping the tone and balance of the game and keeping the right scale for table planning.  And aborting with a table of 4 is bad enough...imagine the obstacles making the abort round (kill sweep) around a table of 8. :)
Guiding principle for game balance:  Players avoid underpowered stuff and flock to overpowered stuff.
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Dancer

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« Reply #2 on: <11-29-14/1139:55> »
It seemed CRAZY when I first saw an unboxing. the entire game would fit in a box half the size. Cut down the rulebook and sixth world one to be half the size but twice as thick and you're good to go.

Yeah, abort rounds with 8 are just not gonna happen. But for the most part other rules should scale up. How would you handle rules that include "also attacks the *role*, could be nasty if two of them land on you and cripple two of your players, and two vampires coming up would be entertaining...

As for horrors, isn't it SR canon that Dunkelzahn died preventing an invasion by them? (*Edit* yep, since 1998, the Dragonheart Trilogy of SR novels) Also pretty sure if you choose the Dragonfall Director's Cut ending (a SR product from just this year) where you kill all the dragons straight up, that in the epilogue they show up a year later since he wasn't able to stop them, and they eat everyone. The end.
« Last Edit: <11-29-14/1148:49> by Dancer »

Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #3 on: <11-29-14/2116:45> »
As for horrors, isn't it SR canon that Dunkelzahn died preventing an invasion by them? (*Edit* yep, since 1998, the Dragonheart Trilogy of SR novels) Also pretty sure if you choose the Dragonfall Director's Cut ending (a SR product from just this year) where you kill all the dragons straight up, that in the epilogue they show up a year later since he wasn't able to stop them, and they eat everyone. The end.

That was when FASA still owned all the rights to both Shadowrun and Earthdawn.  Since the IPs are now split, there's a limit to what can be done with the Horrors without touching Earthdawn IP.  FASA has the computer game rights to the SR license (licensed/owned/whatever by Harebrained Schemes, I don't know all the particulars), so that could be how that bit happens in Dragonfall.  Topps owns the Shadowrun IP for physical products (licensed to Catalyst).  I recall hearing people from Catalyst say before that they can acknowledge the prior existence of canon but can't build on it; it's one (but not the only) reason why we haven't heard much Horror stuff in SR4-5.
Guiding principle for game balance:  Players avoid underpowered stuff and flock to overpowered stuff.
Missions Freelancer (SRM 04-10 Romero & Juliette, SRM 05-01 Chasin' the Wind, SRM 06-06 Falling Angels, PM-02 A Holy Piece of Wetwork)

Jamelfr

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« Reply #4 on: <11-29-14/2121:25> »
The Contest page says that a Missions expansion pack is coming soon : http://www.catalystgamelabs.com/2014/11/03/create-a-shadowrun-crossfire-mission-contest/

But you are more talking about "cards" expansion and I do agree that there is a lot of potential for that, both in the game mechanics and in the universe setting. Selling an expansion deck of 50-ish cards is a good suggestion. I keep my fingers crossed and I hope Catalyst will make announcements when those new products will hit the street.

Dancer

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« Reply #5 on: <11-29-14/2154:40> »

That was when FASA still owned all the rights to both Shadowrun and Earthdawn.  Since the IPs are now split, there's a limit to what can be done with the Horrors without touching Earthdawn IP.  FASA has the computer game rights to the SR license (licensed/owned/whatever by Harebrained Schemes, I don't know all the particulars), so that could be how that bit happens in Dragonfall.  Topps owns the Shadowrun IP for physical products (licensed to Catalyst).  I recall hearing people from Catalyst say before that they can acknowledge the prior existence of canon but can't build on it; it's one (but not the only) reason why we haven't heard much Horror stuff in SR4-5.

So, basically the same situation as you see with several other similar IP conflicts, then. Though I expect they can most definitely do what, for example Marvel did with Age of Ultron in including Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, both of them definitively characters tied to the X-Men IP, for which the film rights lie with Fox (until people wise up and stop going to see the films, so they'll stop making them, the rights will revert to Marvel like the Hulk did, and we can get things like Wolverine as an Avenger, or better yet stop Sony from rebooting Spider man every few years) - Basically they can use the characters, since they are established in the Avengers source material, and therefore are ALSO part of that IP at the same time, as long as absolutely nothing is mentioned of their X-Men ties, backstory, etc.
Which would theoretically allow the use of Horrors in SR, where they are established as part of the setting, so long as no references to Earthdawn, their previous invasion attempts, etc. are included. Which I imagine is how Harebrained did it, as they are simply named, and what they do once they get into the world in in 2057 described, with no references to any context for them beyond their role in Dragonfall. With a computer game or a card game that kind of thing's pretty easy to drop into the setting sans-backstory. Incorporating them into sourcebooks for the P&P version though? For that, anything you use has to have a load of extra contextual information for the GM on how this particular plot element fits into the universe, so yeah, I could see them being left out of those books for that reason. 
(*edit* Now I'm imagining the same scenario if the "Buffy" and "Angel" Licences were split between owners. And new Angel products could have a "Slayer" in them. Because the setting has Slayers as an established plot element. Hell, even one called "Buffy".  But not specifically the same "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" who appears in her own line of products, created AFTER the IPs were split. Just like new ED or SR products could both reference Alamais, but only SR could refer to Lofwyr, whilst ED would probably just about get away with mention of Alamais having a "golden-scaled brother".)

BUT BACK ON TOPIC...

Yeah, even if they hadn't stated it on the contest page just the existence of the contest pretty much guarantees a mission expansion. I expect it'll include the Catalyst-selected winners for the organised play, as well as Close The Portal and Into the Ork Underground. Hopefully at least one more scenario with a new boss.

I do agree that there is a lot of potential for that, both in the game mechanics and in the universe setting.

You forgot to mention "AND IN ALL THE EMPTY SPACE IN THE GODDAMN BOX!" ;p

I still think 54-card decks being the exact number needed for introducing new runner roles works perfectly, whether by coincidence or design.

Some obstacle expansions would work nicely too, with more variation in their special rules. We have a few nice unique ones. More would of course be welcome.  And as I already said, given how we've already seen individual crossfire cards, new supplementary decks cannot be out of the question.

Hey, even if they don't do new roles, replacement decks for each role could work. a deck of new Black Market cards specifically focused on replacing the existing Mage spells with Blood Magic, for example. Or replacing a bunch of the weapon cards with cool cyberware. Give each card new, different abilities, distinguishing it from the regular deck for that role, and you bring something fresh to each of them.
« Last Edit: <11-29-14/2316:18> by Dancer »

Jamelfr

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« Reply #6 on: <12-01-14/1948:44> »
Yeah, even if they hadn't stated it on the contest page just the existence of the contest pretty much guarantees a mission expansion.

Well, you can rejoice, because they have indeed stated that the mission pack was coming: "...we’re already lining up a second printing, and the first Mission Pack!"

I would guess that Missions expansion are less expensive to produce than whole deck of cards, so maybe that is why this is coming first. I am hoping that sales are/will be high enough so they will make deck expansions.

Dancer

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« Reply #7 on: <12-01-14/2001:18> »
Still wondering if the 54-cards thing was by coincidence or by design.
Was it just an arbitrary number of cards specific to each role they decided to use? Or was it so that they could just print custom covers for standard sized playing card deck packs? Pretty sure it'd cut down on costs for printing if you go with the most commonly used standard.

Dancer

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« Reply #8 on: <12-09-14/1859:50> »
Just on the topic of nice handy expansion decks for the game -
I recently started playing Netrunner. I AM EQUALLY HAPPY TO GIVE CATALYST AS MUCH MONEY EACH MONTH AS I DUMP ON FFG'S PRODUCTS. JUST GIVE ME SOME TO SPEND IT ON.

D.B.R.

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« Reply #9 on: <01-25-15/0556:04> »
This is superior fan-made expansion.

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1299834/fan-expansion-hunters-arsenal

Game designers should take inspiration from stuff like this. Great names, feel and also game mechanics.


born_of_flame

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« Reply #10 on: <01-26-15/2252:58> »
Like the direction the fan made one is taking. With some more tweaking it could really be something.

Other than a learning game to familiarize myself with the rules, I haven't been able to get this out on the table yet. That won't stop me from buying any and all expansions when they come out. :P
"I've seen a thousand fires, each has called my name. And every time I die in smoke, I rise again in flame"